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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 271 79.47%
Above Average 46 13.49%
Average 17 4.99%
Below Average 2 0.59%
Poor 5 1.47%
Voters: 341. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 28 2008, 02:17 AM   #751
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

TheBolianChef wrote: View Post
There wasn't a lot of character development. Dent? Joker even had not enough character development. In fact one of my favorite things about the Joker was his origin story. I really wish they had tied that into Batman.
I don't. I love The Killing Joke, I really do, but I prefer the idea that nobody knows who the Joker used to be, or where he came from. It doesn't matter how he became the Joker, or why. The Joker simply is.
Gordon didn't have a lot of development. So catching Joker promoted him to commish? Hmm. I wish there was more to that, then here ya go, here's the commish part. That felt rushed and latched on, that they had to do it.
They didn't have to. Honestly, I was expecting Gordon to be a Captain (or whatever comes after Lieutenant in police ranks) in this one, and become Commissioner either at the end or in the third movie. But his promotion here didn't feel tacked on; with Commissioner Loeb gone, Gordon was the best, cleanest, and most qualified officer the GCPD had left.
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Old July 28 2008, 02:38 AM   #752
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
My only problem, still, is that I don't like Bale's Batman voice and I don't think it is entirely his fault it sounds like it's being heavly tweaked in post.

It's just too much, too strong, and too intense. It's something that really, really, REALLY needs to be fixed. I will agree, though, that Bale is a very good Batman/Bruce otherwise.
Same here. The voice, and to some degree the whole Batman look when we get too good a look at him, just takes me right out of the movie. Visually and aurally, he's just a little too...unsubtle for the otherwise-realistic world around him.

JKTim wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Look at Indiana Jones
1980s.

Superman
1970s.

James Bond
1960s.

but a great, grand, theme is needed for Batman.
Why?

Much like cinematography, directing, acting and just about everything else associated with filmmaking, scoring has evolved with the times. Operatic scores such as John Williams' Star Wars and Indiana Jones, Jerry Goldsmith's Star Trek: The Motion Picture and even Danny Elfman's own Batman (which is quality music but an absolutely terrible score), are elements of a filmmaking age that has passed by.
Lord of the Rings.

Get outta that!

Camelopard wrote: View Post
Whereas those two notes in Zimmer and Howard's theme evoke Batman perched on top of a building, looking down at Gotham City by night, contemplating his next move, or perhaps just brooding about how tortured and emo he is.
And...that's a good thing...?

Terak Rall wrote: View Post
I loved the movie...but walked out feeling just thoroughly depressed! Was surprised that the theater was only about 20% full for a Friday 11 AM screening...and this is a theater in suburban NY that I've seen PACKED.
I just saw it on a second-weekend Sunday afternoon, and the theater was I'd say 70-80% full...enough to make me sit in the fifth row not to have to stumble over people to find a center seat.

Drone36929 wrote: View Post
but for a movie over two and half hours long, the pacing was good enough to keep you from looking at your watch.
I have to say, the pacing was excellent. I never looked at my watch (cell phone, actually, I stopped wearing a watch...and yes, the ringer was off), and the movie surprised me more than once when I thought things were due to wind down and out popped the next phase of the Joker's scheme.

Aragorn wrote: View Post
Actually, his wife's name is Barbara. Meaning his daughter's name isn't.
Not necessarily. A girl can't have the same name as her daughter?
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Old July 28 2008, 03:22 AM   #753
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
And...that's a good thing...?
Actually...yes.

When I saw TDK for the second time on Saturday, I was paying more attention to the music, and I was struck by the soundtrack's effective use of this two-note motif. It generally played right when the action was about to ramp up, or when the Batman was about to do something particularly spectacular or dangerous--when he was about to drop onto the Scarecrow's car, for example. I found it quite effective.

I also realized that the Joker's "theme" consisted of just one prolonged, discordant note, which I also found quite effective. It generally played as the Joker began to put one of his evil schemes into motion, as a way of putting you on edge and building suspense.
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Old July 28 2008, 03:44 AM   #754
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

^I was referring to the whole brooding/emo image, not the music itself.

Hobs202 wrote: View Post
Also, the fact that the coin landed on the "live" side when he fell down hinted that Two-Face may have survived.
I think that was meant to add a bit of pathos--Dent wouldn't have killed the kid, but Batman couldn't have known that.

I don't get the need for some to think Dent might have survived--that would render the end of this movie meaningless.

Tyberius wrote: View Post
Batman was always the darkest, most somber, on the edge character.
"Always"? Haven't read much '50s/'60s Batman, have we...?
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Old July 28 2008, 04:19 AM   #755
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

TheBolianChef wrote: View Post
Because you can't simply separate the mediums, which portray the characters.
Actually, uh, yeah, you can. Blade, for example, is a wholly different take on the material than its comic source, and yet they're both wholly valid interpretations -- just as last year's Transformers wasn't hurt in any way by Optimus Prime being a Peterbilt truck instead a cab-over.

Just because The Dark Knight didn't translate, beat-for-beat, your favorite comic stories and origins, doesn't make it any less of a movie. Try criticizing the movie based on what it was.
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Old July 28 2008, 04:29 AM   #756
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Camelopard wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
And...that's a good thing...?
Actually...yes.

When I saw TDK for the second time on Saturday, I was paying more attention to the music, and I was struck by the soundtrack's effective use of this two-note motif. It generally played right when the action was about to ramp up, or when the Batman was about to do something particularly spectacular or dangerous--when he was about to drop onto the Scarecrow's car, for example. I found it quite effective.

I also realized that the Joker's "theme" consisted of just one prolonged, discordant note, which I also found quite effective. It generally played as the Joker began to put one of his evil schemes into motion, as a way of putting you on edge and building suspense.
You mean that you could hear the audio and dialogue in all scenes? When I saw it there were times when the music overshadowed the scenes and dialogue.
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Old July 28 2008, 04:37 AM   #757
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

The music that particularly killed scenes for me (I think it happened twice) was when the music was really high pitched violins that got higher and higher and then it peaked and stayed there forever. I hated when it hit the top and didn't drop back down.
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Old July 28 2008, 05:23 AM   #758
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Wow.

TDK made more money in 10 days than Indie made in 9 weeks.

LOL!
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Old July 28 2008, 05:24 AM   #759
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Frontier wrote: View Post
Wow.

TDK made more money in 10 days than Indie made in 9 weeks.

LOL!
The same can be said about a lot of movies. Don't gang up Indy alone, okay?

Hell, The Dark Knight was a few hundred grand short of Iron Man which has been out longer than Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls.
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Old July 28 2008, 05:43 AM   #760
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Frontier wrote: View Post
Wow.

TDK made more money in 10 days than Indie made in 9 weeks.
So what? Many other films have made less money than Indy did.

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Old July 28 2008, 06:00 AM   #761
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
As mentioned already, I saw no indication that Reese knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman, just that he knew that Fox/Wayne Enterprises was supplying him with equipment. Fox basically confessed that Bruce was Batman.
This bothered me, too; as it did in Batman: Year One, when Gordon and his partner are investigating possible Batman suspects. They rule out Harvey Dent because he doesn't have the means, and investigate Bruce Wayne because he does. Does it never occur to anyone that Bruce Wayne might be funding someone like Dent to be Batman, without being Batman himself?

Why did Anthony Michael Hall's part in the movie have to be kept secret? Did anyone ever answer that?
Where was he in the movie anyway?

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
Director Christopher Nolan has gone on record saying Robin is in some crib somewhere in his films. Translation: Don't expect to see Robin anytime soon.
I know I've said this a few times here and there, but that's a pity, especially having just rewatched BB for the first time this weekend since originally seeing it in the theater. There's so much emphasis on Batman being a symbol rather than one man; and at one point Bruce even describes that symbol as "everlasting", or a similar term, to Alfred. It seems like an apprentice is exactly what he would need to ensure that the symbol lives on beyond one man. Should he be a 12-year-old in a bright costume? Of course not, not in this world. But just having Wayne take on an apprentice, or scoping one out as a potential later recruit, would be a good nod to Robin's place in the mythos that would work very well in this version. (Note that the implication in BB is that Wayne himself didn't undergo any special training directed at becoming Batman prior to the Chill/Falcone incident. So Wayne wouldn't necessarily need to recruit his Robin as a child, but he might have his eye on a child who suffers a tragic incident similar to his own, for future recruiting as an adult.)

Spaceman Spiff wrote: View Post
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archeryguy1701 wrote: View Post
Well, he's not running around with guns trying to kill people. In fact, he's trying to avoid killing folks.
Which is why I thought it might have been more appropriate for Batman to say something along the lines of "Because I don't need guns" or somesuch rather than the "hockey pads" comment.
Except what he was expressing to the imitators was about their protection, which was his main concern.
Had the imitators been genuine, dedicated crimefighters worthy of Batman's respect...they wouldn't have been LARPing Batman, they'd have their own identities or group motif. They were amateurs.
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Old July 28 2008, 07:03 AM   #762
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

^ Anthony Michael Hall was the TV news show host. I think the most he did in the movie was get kidnapped by Joker. He's logged more screentime doing the fake TV broadcasts than the actual movie.

On a side note, would it have taken the audience out of the movie had they made, say, Adam West or Val Kilmer the fake Batman?
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Old July 28 2008, 07:29 AM   #763
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

I'm giving this an unsurprising Excellent. It's the best movie I've seen this year, probably the best movie I've seen in years.

On the issue of sidekicks, I did notice that Jim Gordon has a daughter.
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Old July 28 2008, 08:01 AM   #764
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

JKTim wrote: View Post
TheBolianChef wrote: View Post
Because you can't simply separate the mediums, which portray the characters.
Actually, uh, yeah, you can. Blade, for example, is a wholly different take on the material than its comic source, and yet they're both wholly valid interpretations -- just as last year's Transformers wasn't hurt in any way by Optimus Prime being a Peterbilt truck instead a cab-over.

Just because The Dark Knight didn't translate, beat-for-beat, your favorite comic stories and origins, doesn't make it any less of a movie. Try criticizing the movie based on what it was.
No, I do agree that some of the artistic changes for good or bad can be done right. I didn't mind Optimus Prime being whatever he was. He looked like Optimus. Same with the flames. I did have a major point in that him and Megatron were brothers and I did have a slight problem with the entire makeover of Bumblebee.

How is Blade any different than what is in the comics? I haven't kept up with Blade in a long time (is his comic still around?) but I believed that his origin stayed pretty well to the comics.

The problem I am having with the Dark Knight is this:

What is Christopher Nolan trying to do? Is he trying to re-write Batman? Is he trying to follow more closely to the comics? Because to me, it's hard to do both without stepping on toes.

From what I understood in Batman Begins, he was trying to recreate Batman and the villains. He was trying to make them more real and to do away with the -- fantasy? I don't know how you would say it. Things like the Lazarus Pits with Ra's and the origin of Joker. But essentially, he was trying to make Batman more realistic than anything, no?

We can argue semantics and can argue about this and that but we can agree that there are certain things in Batman that stay true through each medium and each outlet for the character.

- Batman's parents are killed
- Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing's parents are killed. Even in the horrendous reboot, Grayson's parents are killed.
- Batman creates the Joker -- Joker's origin is never explained. This I can agree upon with the movie. And I actually liked that Nolan nodded to the comics in this, that Joker gives different reasons for his being. It doesn't have to be the same stories, I just like that the fact that the Joker doesn't have an origin and that he is a pathological liar.

But what I did have a problem with, is that the Joker came out of a vacuum. I thought we would have the delight of seeing Batman (when it was first reported) create the Joker and that is why the Joker is obsessed with the Batman. It doesn't have to be a vat of chemicals. It could be anything but I wanted to see that connection between the two. It could be a botched robbery or something.

Another thing that I simply cannot remove from my mind is Harvey Dent's split personality. Nolan leaves two explainations in the air for Dent's transformation to Two - Face

1/ Dent has always had two personalities buried within himself. A split between good and bad. That personality is brought out by the Joker and by his disfiguring; that what he looks like now represents who he is.

2/ Dent just goes insane from the trauma. He never had two personalities. The loss of Rachel and the disfiguring adds to this trauma and his personality fractures.

Which one of these is the correct one?

Nolan seems to be leaning toward re-creating a new Batman universe devoid of comics except in name only with the re-imaging of Gordon (family), the origins of Dent (which I found actually more plausable), Joker, and Ra's.

I also kept thinking Ramerez was Montoya for some odd reason.

So my question is, what is Nolan doing with the Batman movies?
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Old July 28 2008, 09:01 AM   #765
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Re: The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

How I see it, and how I've heard others describe his intentions, is that he's not doing any stories from the comics, he's not following anything in there, it's just inspired by, and in the spirit of the comic.
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