The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

[Emh]

Pure. Awesome.

There wasn't a thing about this film that I didn't like (okay, the court scenes were a bit awkward, but that's it!) and so much that I absolutely LOVED!

Not only was this Bruce Wayne's, Batman's, Harvey Dent's, and The Joker's story (as expected), but this was also Jim Gordon's story. I came in expecting big stuff for those four but I was impressed how the Nolans managed to successfully weave in Jim Gordon's story and the place he's forced to be in at the end of the film. Everyone else was just playing second fiddle to these five.

As for Rachel Dawes, I liked how everyone (myself included) had been fooled into thinking that Rachel was going to die when The Joker threw her off the roof. Nope! That being said, I did figure she was going to die later on and what a death. The set up and final reveal of her death tied in with Harvey Dent's scarring and madness all manipulated by The Joker was masterful.

Speaking of The Joker, the Nolans and Heath Ledger did a brilliant job of making him thoroughly and utterly maniacal and random (yet paradoxically deliberate at the same time). The twisted game he plays with his fellow bank robbers at the beginning was merely the tip of the iceberg. The killing of people each day in attempt to force Batman's hand was still the tip. Indicating who's next to be killed was still the tip. But then we reach the set up of Rachel's death and Harvey's scarring and now we're getting somewhere. Then the worst of all, The Joker's social experiment with the citizens and criminals of Gotham on two ferries (although I kind of had hoped the citizen pulled the trigger, but I know that wasn't the point).

The Joker is the ultimate terrorist.

I loved Two-Face and the build up to his scarring and madness, but I was a bit disappointed that he was killed off in the end. He served the purpose of the film (showing even the greatest good can be pulled down) and the poignant open tribute to Harvey Dent's memory was a nice touch, but still had hoped he survived. At least, in the next film, we'll have all new villains, whoever they may be (my vote is for The Riddler).

I was thoroughly amazed by how much was jammed packed into the film. About an hour and half in, I figured there was only a half an hour left (even though I knew there was so much more to come) because the story had been so dense up to that point. And as expected, the following hour was all the more incredible.

Major props to all of the supporting cast, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Eric Roberts, Anthony Michael Hall, Nestor Carbonell, Chin Hau, Michael Jai White, Cillian Murphy, Colin McFarlane, and William Fichtner who gave this film such wonderful richness and depth to an already excellent film.

If we had a letter grade poll, I would have given this film an A+. Best film of the year and the best superhero film to date.

[Neroon]

Jut got back. Words fail me at the moment. In part because I have a nasty sinus headache that the TDK soundtrack probably contributed to.

Anyway... I will post more detailed thoughts later. Right now, let me just say that I think I agree with about everything Lapis said earlier. An utterly stunning film. Not just a great superhero film but a stunning film period.

[Mr. Adventure]

This was a really solid film with a lot of action, a great look, a bravura performance from Heath Ledger, and a lot of good philosophical points to chew on. I liked the Joker's motivation or lack thereof and the reasons for his scars. I thought Aaron Echart(sp) did a really good job as well and will probably be overlooked in Heath's shadow but I've never been that impressed with his work and was surprised.

Trekker4747 wrote:

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I think that event was needed to push the two characters to their limits to make them who they have to be.

But, I disagree with you on Holmes vs. Maggie. Maggie was much more suited for this role. I just don't think Holmes could've played romanticly off Eckhart that well or played the warehouse scene as well either.

I thought Maggie seemed more natural with Bale as well. Even on just a visual level.

Trekker4747 wrote:

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These really should be open polls so we can know these things.

How did Batman survive his two big falls? The first one from Wayne Tower when he caught Rachel and the second one when he went over with Two-Face. They were pretty major falls and the one with Maggie had him crusing a car (infact in the parking garage he smashed a car when jumping too.)

Those bothered me as well, probably because much of the film is pretty grounded and it's not like it killed the movie for me or anything but it did take me out for a second. Similar moments were the mayor's eye makeup and Bale's gravelly Batman voice which wasn't working so well in the final moments of the picture.

The cell phone sonar thing while "kewl" made me wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to just listen for the Joker's voice on the open mics and find him thusly. Hell, I figured out the hostage trick as soon as they showed them in the open window so it's not like he needed it to figure it out.

[Emh]

Frontier wrote:

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I can't see them re-casting the part a la Gylenhaal. I think they should just do some sort of shadowy vocal cameo. Have a siloette of a guy in a cell in Arkham, you can't see him, but you hear the laugh. Elude to his being alive, but leave him as Heath. But that's just me.

To be honest, I don't like that idea either. I would prefer just some verbal reference to him or perhaps even walking past his closed solitary confinement cell with his name on it at Arkham Asylum.

[Admiral2]

Friggin Excellent!

That's all i'm sayin'.

[jbny67]

Wow. I read through most of this thread and what can I say that hasn't already been said. Awesome movie. Not just a great Batman movie or superhero movie but, a great movie period. Great performances from the cast and superb direction. It did not feel like it was over 2 hours long.
I'll leave it at that for now and let it really sink in as I think it over. Then I'll post my detailed thoughts and feelings.

[aladinsane]

Just saw it. Pretty good. I loved the roof-top camera work, and Eckhart was excellent. Ledger lived up to billing, even though his Joker voice really started to bother me by the end of the movie. I can't say it's a Oscar worthy performance, but it was certainly way better than I had hoped and expected.

Overall, the movie felt a bit long. I found myself checking my watch a few times--never a good thing. I will want to see it again for sure, but my first impression is that this was a very solid movie, but a step down from Begins.

[Mr. Adventure]

Emh wrote:

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To be honest, I don't like that idea either. I would prefer just some verbal reference to him or perhaps even walking past his closed solitary confinement cell with his name on it at Arkham Asylum.

Aaaah, just recast him everyone will forget soon enough. I hear Andy Dick's available, he'll do just fine....

[Goliath]

A very good film, though I didn't find it as stunning as some people did. I rated it "above average".

For some reason, the beginning didn't seem to work very well--at least for me. In retrospect, the movie reminds me of a car that has trouble starting, at first, then gets rolling smoothly, and finally is racing along at breakneck speeds and performing all sorts of amazing stunts by the end.

I actually gasped and said "oh!" when...

...the convict threw the detonator out the porthole. That, and the other passenger's inability to throw the switch, on the other ferry, was one of the most powerful moments of the film for me--a very forceful affirmation of the basic goodness and decency of ordinary people, and a big collective "Fuck You" to the Joker.

It was as if those passengers were saying: "you may kill us, you twisted freak, but you can't degrade us down to your level, and make us kill each other; we are not like you." They were all tempted--even sorely tempted--but finally stepped back from the brink. It was an unexpectedly positive message for such a dark film. Just brilliant writing and directing, IMO.

That scene, in turn, got me thinking about the person the Joker did succeed in degrading: Harvey Dent.

On the one hand, you could argue that any man could be driven over the edge by such a traumatic experience. But looking back, the movie seems to have hinted that all was not quite right with Dent to begin with. He deceives people with a two-headed coin, and brags about "making his own luck." This seems innocent enough, at first--he uses it to persuade Rachel to go out with him. Their relationship begins with a little white lie--but a lie nonetheless.

Then things take a darker turn, when he uses the coin-flip to torture that one prisoner. We know that he won't pull the trigger--the coin will always come up heads--but his captive doesn't. Both of these incidents hint, at least to me, that Dent is not quite the white knight he's made out to be. The seeds of Two-Face exist inside Dent, long before he is disfigured.

And ultimately, of course, when Rachel is murdered, Batman is wounded as deeply as Dent--but does not go off the deep end the way Dent does. Ultimately, and ironically, the "dark knight" possesses moral resources that the "white knight" does not. He won't even kill the Joker.

[Mr. Adventure]

Camelopard wrote:

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A very good film, though I didn't find it as stunning as some people did. I rated it "above average".

For some reason, the beginning didn't seem to work very well--at least for me. In retrospect, the movie reminds me of a car that has trouble starting, at first, then gets rolling smoothly, and finally is racing along at breakneck speeds and performing all sorts of amazing stunts by the end.

I actually gasped and said "oh!" when...

...the convict threw the detonator out the porthole. That, and the other passenger's inability to throw the switch, on the other ferry, was one of the most powerful moments of the film for me--a very forceful affirmation of the basic goodness and decency of ordinary people, and a big collective "Fuck You" to the Joker.

It was as if those passengers were saying: "you may kill us, you twisted freak, but you can't degrade us down to your level, and make us kill each other; we are not like you." They were all tempted--even sorely tempted--but finally stepped back from the brink. It was an unexpectedly positive message for such a dark film. Just brilliant writing and directing, IMO.

That scene, in turn, got me thinking about the person the Joker did succeed in degrading: Harvey Dent.

On the one hand, you could argue that any man could be driven over the edge by such a traumatic experience. But looking back, the movie seems to have hinted that all was not quite right with Dent to begin with. He deceives people with a two-headed coin, and brags about "making his own luck." This seems innocent enough, at first--he uses it to persuade Rachel to go out with him. Their relationship begins with a little white lie--but a lie nonetheless.

Then things take a darker turn, when he uses the coin-flip to torture that one prisoner. We know that he won't pull the trigger--the coin will always come up heads--but his captive doesn't. Both of these incidents hint, at least to me, that Dent is not quite the white knight he's made out to be. The seeds of Two-Face exist inside Dent, long before he is disfigured.

And ultimately, of course, when Rachel is murdered, Batman is wounded as deeply as Dent--but does not go off the deep end the way Dent does. Ultimately, and ironically, the "dark knight" possesses moral resources that the "white knight" does not. He won't even kill the Joker.

I figured the Joker probably wired the detonators to their own bomb anyway. Just seems like what he'd do.

[Canadave]

Mr. Adventure wrote:

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Similar moments were the mayor's eye makeup and Bale's gravelly Batman voice which wasn't working so well in the final moments of the picture.

I'm not sure if that was makeup or if Nestor Carbonell just has naturally dark eyes, since he looks exactly the same when he's on Lost.

[Goliath]

Mr. Adventure wrote:

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I figured the Joker probably wired the detonators to their own bomb anyway. Just seems like what he'd do.

True. But they didn't know that. At least, it didn't seem to occur to them.

[Captain Craig]

Mr. Adventure wrote:

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I figured the Joker probably wired the detonators to their own bomb anyway. Just seems like what he'd do.

I told my friend the same thing. Seems I wasn't the only one to think that.

[Mr. Adventure]

Canadave wrote:

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I'm not sure if that was makeup or if Nestor Carbonell just has naturally dark eyes, since he looks exactly the same when he's on Lost.

Haven't watched Lost lately but maybe, it just seemed really prominent, especially in his office.

[Trekker4747]

One or both would be fitting.