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Old May 24 2008, 03:58 PM   #16
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

Well, let's see -

The deflector dish appears on the Mike Minor renderings of the ship, and doesn't appear to be quite flush with the front of the engineering hull. In fact I can't find anything in Jefferies' drawings indicating what his treatment of the dish would have been other than as Minor represents it, so - as Capt April said of the warp grilles - I have to do something with it. Minor's painting represents the best info I had available, in this case. There's certainly nothing that I'm aware of to indicate that they were going to light up the deflector ala TMP.

And yeah, the grilles are purple because it was either purple or blue and I'm sick of blue - there's a lot of dark or black detailing on the color renderings that just doesn't work.

Nacelle caps - now, there's something that will need to diverge from the color renderings but I haven't decided how yet. The problem with them as rendered is that the extremely dark blue/black treatment causes the caps to simply disappear into the black background of space. I don't know what they were thinking, there - a similar color treatment was applied to the main deflector dish. I've decided to eventually represent the dish as steel or a dark gun-metal color, but as far as the nacelle fronts are concerned...I dunno. I may try a variation of the unlit, blood-red caps from "The Cage."
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Old May 24 2008, 05:30 PM   #17
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

What about using the same purple as the grills?
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Old May 24 2008, 10:53 PM   #18
dru
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

jon1701 wrote: View Post
Did he jefferies intend to have anything going on there?
It depends. There are some sketches when he's working out the new "power pods" and he indicates a glow on the top of the new nacelle caps. Those caps, however, are a different style than what was ultimately decided up.

There was also a note that he only intended to suggest a change to the nacelle and struts, and not to the rest of the ship, although in reality subtle alterations would exist.

We also know from seeing photos of the incomplete VFX scale model that there is only a solid mass on the front of the nacelle caps.

On the deflector dish, I asked Andy Probert on this board once and he replied he had no memory of anything special planned for the Phase II version such as a lighted deflector. The working sketches I've seen all indicate Jefferies planned to keep a classic TOS deflector dish. Why it isn't indicated on the finalized plans or schematics is a mystery.

Dennis, what Mike Minor images are you using? Are they online?

(Bless you for using purple and not the blue.)
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Old May 25 2008, 12:07 AM   #19
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

Here ya go:


Last edited by Admiral Buzzkill; May 25 2008 at 12:22 AM.
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Old May 26 2008, 04:08 AM   #20
Maurice
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

I think, as Dennis's renderd prove, it's a much better looking ship than some people give it credit for. It's not as beautifully refined as the refit we got—it's the last 20% that makes or breaks a design—but still nice ship.

From the renderings I've seen, and Minor's painting, above, it looks like the nacelle caps were intended to just be the hull color.

HOWEVER, it appears Minor kept reworking the painting as the show developed, and even refit-ized it once.


Click HERE for a bigger image

As it happens, I just found a magazine which features one version of the Mike Minor rendering from 1978 that looks a lot like the one posted by Dennis (previous message), but without the whoosh lines, and with an interesting detail that I haven't seen clearly elsewhere.

EDIT: here it is



A higher res scan is HERE: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/...a6e79d_b_d.jpg

The scan, unfortunately, doesn't show the relevant bits as clearly as they appear on the original magazine pages, despite my best attempts. But the lines around the nacelle caps and the major lines on the inboard warp grills appear to be painted the same way as the glowing windows and lights on the rest of the ship. There's no black around the grilles, as on the TMP refit. Whether this means they were intended to glow, or if it was just sort artistic florish, I can't tell you.

The deflector dish, while in shadow, has a bluish gray cast to it in this painting.

I also noticed there's no NCC number or any of these pre-TMP design renderings. My guess is, when they decided to put the grilles on the outboard sides of the necelles, thye noved the registry to the secondary hull and deliberately left it off the nacelles.

Make of all this what you will.
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Last edited by Maurice Navidad; May 26 2008 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Updated to add scanned image
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Old May 26 2008, 02:02 PM   #21
Shaw
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

Ummm... you guys do know that the best way to match up with the details of those paintings is to start out with what they were based on... the 18" AMT Enterprise Model Kit.

I've worked with that kit enough in my lifetime to be able to pick many of the details out in a crowd. The primary hull and dorsal are from the original long box kit, while the dish is from the later short box editions. All of which shouldn't be surprising to anyone as there was an early study version done as a modification of an 18" model kit before work got started on the full size filming miniature. Of course the 18" study model wasn't fully completed as it was designed to help illustrate how the new major elements would go together, and so it wouldn't be odd for someone to assume that because the model kit originally came with a dish that one should be added to the painting (which is why the geometry of that dish matches the kit's version rather than the original's, and why the smaller dish from the later kit would be used rather than the larger dish of the original kit).

Some differences between the long box and short box kit included the dimples on the underside of the primary hull (which were on no filming model) are not symmetrical on the original kit but are symmetrical along the center line on the later kit. Also the dorsal was fitting to the contours of the primary hull on the earlier kit while the later kit had a flat area added to the primary hull's under side where the dorsal would connect.

dru wrote: View Post
The working sketches I've seen all indicate Jefferies planned to keep a classic TOS deflector dish. Why it isn't indicated on the finalized plans or schematics is a mystery.
Do you have images of these working sketches by Jefferies? The concept sketches I've seen don't address details in that area and all additional drawings of the ship are not only missing the dish itself, but also any reference to the concentric rings behind the dish or where the dish would mount in the center. Even that part of the final model under construction is missing the rings and mounting (though there isn't any reason why they couldn't have been added in later*).


While I'm willing to admit that the absence of those details doesn't confirm that they were going to be absent on the finished model, I've seen no evidence (at all) beyond paintings (based on early test modifications of an AMT model... primary hull underside dimples and all) that it was going to be included.

And anything that would provide a hint (either way) of what Jefferies was actually planning would be a tremendous find.



* To answer the obvious comment of "but that part of the model isn't in any of the pictures," there is a nice shot from the front that shows that assembly sitting on the table in the background (next to what appears to be the hangar bay doors).
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Old May 26 2008, 05:23 PM   #22
Gep Malakai
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

DS9Sega wrote: View Post
HOWEVER, it appears Minor kept reworking the painting as the show developed, and even refit-ized it once.


Click HERE for a bigger image

...

Make of all this what you will.
Now isn't that interesting. If that really is a Phase-II era painting, it helps make sense out of this image from Star Trek: The Magazine:



(Click for larger version.)

The text caption from that page:
Star Trek: The Magazine wrote:
When Bob [Wise] joined the project several models and sets had been constructed for a planned TV series; he was insistant that everyhing be rebuilt, so that it could be presented properly on the big screen. The model of the U.S.S. ENTERPRISE nearly doubled in size, and the new sets were built to the highest standards; both stood the test of time and remained in use for over a decade.
This model is pretty dang close to the Minor painting, with the exception of the deflector dish and red markings on the saucer. Is it possible the the Phase II model saw continual upgrades throughout its construction (as deadlines came and went), so that the final version looked like this? And it does appear to have the inset, glowing blue deflector instead of the dish.
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Old May 26 2008, 07:15 PM   #23
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

No. The model in your photo is not the Phase II model but the TMP model as initially constructed, before Trumbull came on to the film and requested additional detailing.

For example, here's a page at Andrew Probert's site that shows specifically how the torpedo tube in your photo was transformed by further detailing into what we saw in the movie:

http://www.probertdesigns.com/Folder...pedoTubes.html

The Mike Minor painting that reflects the TMP changes was done later, after the changes had been made to the TMP model (not the Phase II model). He also included some red striping on the saucer which may have been intended but was never actually applied to the model.
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Old May 27 2008, 12:08 AM   #24
Maurice
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

Shaw wrote: View Post
Ummm... you guys do know that the best way to match up with the details of those paintings is to start out with what they were based on... the 18" AMT Enterprise Model Kit.
I for one realize that. I was simply adding to the reference images. The "dimples" do give away the AMT source, but as many of the other details match the miniature Loos was building, I thought it was interesting additional reference.

On the blueprint image you posted with the pentagonal docking port, is that the cross section of the engine pylon I see at the base where it connects to the hull?

One thing I find curious is that, although an oversize section of the Phase II hull was built complete with the pentagonal docking port, that same feature doesn't appear to be present on Loos miniature, which makes me wonder if/when it was dropped.

Another thing I puzzle over re the Loos model is the fact that all it has two port nacelles. You can see that the intercooler gizmo on the outboard side of the port nacelle is on the inboard side of the starboard one. I wonder if this was a mistake, or just that they had two castings of the port nacelle and temporarily mounted the second on the model while the starboard one was being fabricated.
Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
The Mike Minor painting that reflects the TMP changes was done later, after the changes had been made to the TMP model (not the Phase II model). He also included some red striping on the saucer which may have been intended but was never actually applied to the model.
Well, actually, they were applied to the model at a point before the ship got it's final rework, but after that happened, the decals were left off. You can see them on the model on page 158 of The Art of Star Trek.
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Last edited by Maurice Navidad; May 27 2008 at 12:15 AM.
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Old May 27 2008, 12:17 AM   #25
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

I assume that the docking port just hadn't been added to Loos' model yet - it's missing most of the detailing on the secondary hull.

I believe that is the cross-section of the pylon at its base, on the blueprint in question - I used it for reference as such in building my mesh.

It does look like Minor's "TMP" rendering is of the movie model prior to the "Trumbull refit" - it's missing the spotlight housings around the lower saucer dome and the torpedo tube looks like the early version.

I left off the "photon dimples" because they appear only in the Minor rendering - not in Jefferies drawings or the Loos model - and because I hate them.
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Old May 27 2008, 05:54 AM   #26
lennier1
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

@Dennis: Impressive work. Hope she´ll get faint specular details which resemble hull plating instead of the typical aztec pattern.

DS9Sega wrote: View Post
...
Starship Polaris wrote: View Post
The Mike Minor painting that reflects the TMP changes was done later, after the changes had been made to the TMP model (not the Phase II model). He also included some red striping on the saucer which may have been intended but was never actually applied to the model.
Well, actually, they were applied to the model at a point before the ship got it's final rework, but after that happened, the decals were left off. You can see them on the model on page 158 of The Art of Star Trek.
For those without a copy at hand: http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/359...y1eb12dbw3.jpg
Also note the TOS-style bridge superstructure and the smooth top of the impulse module.
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Old May 27 2008, 08:12 AM   #27
Maurice
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

One thing that always bugs be about those photos of the Loos model is the detailing on the aft centerline of the impulse deck. It just looks WRONG. It almost looks like it was intedned to be one long wedge and someone cut it in two and put the two pieces together in the wrong order. Has anyone seen this detail on any of the plans? It smells to me like a modelmaker trying to add some greeblie detail that just doesn't fit the lines of the ship.
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Old May 28 2008, 11:08 AM   #28
Shaw
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

DS9Sega wrote: View Post
Another thing I puzzle over re the Loos model is the fact that all it has two port nacelles. You can see that the intercooler gizmo on the outboard side of the port nacelle is on the inboard side of the starboard one. I wonder if this was a mistake, or just that they had two castings of the port nacelle and temporarily mounted the second on the model while the starboard one was being fabricated.
I'm of the opinion that it was done for convenience of the test fitting of the various parts. In addition to making sure that the model itself came together correctly, they were also making sure that it worked with the other model it would be sharing screen time with in the pilot... the dock.

Personally, if I had been building this model I would have stopped work on the nacelle once I had reached the point were they stop being symmetric and made a casting of them at that point. It would have been easier to make the additional elements for the port and starboard versions after the nacelle bodies were cast and just added them on.

One of the models cast from the Phase II Enterprise parts sold on ebay a couple months ago for just over $15,000 (here). It started at $3,000 but didn't stay that low for very long. It would have been interesting to see if it would be possible to restore it to the original Phase II specifications.
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Old May 28 2008, 02:44 PM   #29
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

I was appalled when I first saw one of these "hybrid" models built from Loos' work - they don't really honor either Jefferies' designs or the TMP redesign; they're awful kludges.
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Old May 30 2008, 07:21 AM   #30
Maurice
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Re: "Star Trek: Phase II" Enterprise

Shaw wrote: View Post
One of the models cast from the Phase II Enterprise parts sold on ebay a couple months ago for just over $15,000 (here). It started at $3,000 but didn't stay that low for very long. It would have been interesting to see if it would be possible to restore it to the original Phase II specifications.
Looks possible, Most of the hull shapes are unaltered. You'd have to hack the extra bits off, replace the bridge, redo the torpedo deck, etc. It would be a lot of work, but perhaps less than building from scratch!
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