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Old April 3 2008, 09:23 PM   #346
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

I totally agree on the whole "Starfleet isn't the Military" issue. Overtly militant fan designs are a huge pet peeve of mine! Can't stand the bloody things and don't get me started on "Starfleet Marines"!. Still, allot of Starfleet's tradition, hierarchy and terminology clearly has it's roots in old Earth military. More so than I would prefer, but we're stuck with it.

As far as the "ships stores" go, I don't think they are stores in the sense that K-Mart is a store. As I said I live on a British Army camp (and future concentration camp for those who've seen V for Vendetta ;0)) and like allot of civvies in the area I have worked for the Army as a civil servant and over here, when someone refers to "Stores" they're not talking about where they get their crisps, paper and mars bar. Stores are, well, for storing things. A signal stores is where the radio equipment go and are checked out from, accommodation stores are for furniture and so on; all of this of course coming under the QM's department. Having said all that, I'm not sure if the same applies to the Navy or indeed any American armed forces, this is just based on my own experience.
Anyway, in this context I'd say ship's stores would be where equipment, uniforms and whatever is in the cargo bays is checked out from. In the context of the 23rd century they also seam responsible for fabricating item from the ship's database (e.g. 20th century clothes & artefacts) and of course recycling when they're finished with.

As for bringing civilisation to the frontier, I'm sure they'd be stocked up on the essentials for 23rd century colony building (survival gear, medical supplies, shelters, food & water packs, survey equipment, agricultural tools, construction equipment, computers, etc) I just have a hard time seeing Starfleet bringing snow globes and fridge magnets to the colonists on Caldos II.
However, I'm sure as a courtesy a ship's captain might allocate a certain amount of resources to personal items for the colonist, like say toys for the children, some hard copy books for the town library, perhaps some sports and leisure gear or some meditation lamps for the Vulcan temple.

Still, we're given to believe that the Federation is not materially driven, so I can't see them specifically having a gift shop. I'm sure that need is taken care of by whatever the 23rd Century inheritors of the old Earth Cargo Service (which seamed mostly a franchise endeavour) might be or indeed independent traders like Mudd & Jones.

On the watch front, I also have four. Two digital & analogue, one just digital and one just analogue. The analogue one is what I'd call a "dress" watch, for the odd occasion when I'm required to look smart, the digital is just an old one I keep as a backup while one of the combies is a cheepo "don't care if it gets smashed to buggery" watch I used to wear when I worked on building sites, the other one being my everyday watch, but it's one of those that you can turn off the digital face so it looks analogue.

Last edited by Reverend; April 3 2008 at 09:30 PM.
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Old April 3 2008, 10:06 PM   #347
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Okay, I'm not much of a Sci-Fi aficionado... what did "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" say about watches?

Reverend wrote:
As far as the "ships stores" go, I don't think they are stores in the sense that K-Mart is a store.... I just have a hard time seeing Starfleet bringing snow globes and fridge magnets to the colonists on Caldos II.
Wait a second... How in the world are you taking two (or maybe three decks) at about 20 feet wide and maybe 40 feet long and turning that into K-Mart? And why would anyone want snow globes and fridge magnets? Basically what I'm talking about is the type of store that would have been in a military fort in the western North American continent before those territories were states. The only difference is that this one comes to you as it is impractical for these people to travel to a StarBase or well settled colony.

As for stores and the military... I grew up in Coronado and spent a ton of time at North Island Naval Air Station (where we had the Kitty Hawk, Constellation and Independence stationed) and the Naval Amphibious Base. These types of things seem pretty normal to me... in fact, the only McDonald's in Coronado when I was growing up was the one on base. So the type of thing I'm talking about is definitely not outside of the boundaries of the plausible.

Throughout Star Trek starships paying call on remote outposts have offered their faculties as a change of scenery for those who have been isolated for extended stretches. I have to believe that that would be part of the ship's function out on the frontier... to help keep the frontier productive. I doubt that anyone would want to stake their lives on traders like Mudd or Jones, who would be just as likely to never stop by again as to overcharge for the simplest of items.

Still, we're given to believe that the Federation is not materially driven...
I think there is a massive gap between materially driven and the comforts of home. I'm not materially driven, but do own pictures, books and other comfort items. I don't live to acquire wealth (I live to acquire knowledge), but I don't shun things either.

Look at any of the crews cabins and you'll see... stuff. Are they materially driven because they have that stuff?

Last edited by Shaw; April 3 2008 at 10:12 PM.
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Old April 3 2008, 10:20 PM   #348
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
I totally agree on the whole "Starfleet isn't the Military" issue. Overtly militant fan designs are a huge pet peeve of mine! Can't stand the bloody things and don't get me started on "Starfleet Marines"!.
So who does the Federation call when war is declared upon them? (If there's an answer to this that isn't "Starfleet" then that's really cool.)
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Old April 3 2008, 11:14 PM   #349
Redfern
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Okay, I'm not much of a Sci-Fi aficionado... what did "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" say about watches?
From the book, radio play, etc...

Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea...
ZING!!!

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Old April 3 2008, 11:23 PM   #350
aridas sofia
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Tallguy wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
I totally agree on the whole "Starfleet isn't the Military" issue. Overtly militant fan designs are a huge pet peeve of mine! Can't stand the bloody things and don't get me started on "Starfleet Marines"!.
So who does the Federation call when war is declared upon them? (If there's an answer to this that isn't "Starfleet" then that's really cool.)
The Security Corps.

Starfleet seems to be a descendant of Navy, Coast Guard and NOAA. I tend to think of the "Navy" part that we've seen as being largely defensive and incorporated within the NOAA/ Coast Guard part. In fact, I'd go so far as to say its overarching historical dominance led to it providing the structure and tradition to Starfleet, even though many of those traditions were a part of the Coast Guard and NOAA as well.

And yet, I think a believable scenario for the hostile environment portrayed in TOS would lead to there being, in reserve, some serious force that we never saw. Purely military and largely uncrewed, serious -- very serious -- flying weaponry. The kind of thing that would clearly reveal just how much the Fleet had learned from encounters with aggressors like the Doomsday Machine, Nomad or V'ger. The culture would prevent this force from being activated until needed, but fear would demand it be there, in waiting, just in case.
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Old April 4 2008, 12:51 AM   #351
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
Wait a second... How in the world are you taking two (or maybe three decks) at about 20 feet wide and maybe 40 feet long and turning that into K-Mart? And why would anyone want snow globes and fridge magnets?
Well keep in mind I'm a Brit and K-Mart is the only American shop I can name.
Perhaps a petrol station convenience shop would be a slightly better analogy?

Basically what I'm talking about is the type of store that would have been in a military fort in the western North American continent before those territories were states. The only difference is that this one comes to you as it is impractical for these people to travel to a StarBase or well settled colony.
So what specifically would you suppose would be on offer in this shop? I ask because I honestly can't think of anything other than knick knacks that wouldn't already be obtainable though the galley or the QM.

As for stores and the military... I grew up in Coronado and spent a ton of time at North Island Naval Air Station (where we had the Kitty Hawk, Constellation and Independence stationed) and the Naval Amphibious Base. These types of things seem pretty normal to me... in fact, the only McDonald's in Coronado when I was growing up was the one on base. So the type of thing I'm talking about is definitely not outside of the boundaries of the plausible.
Sure, on a modern navy ship, but as I said by the 23rd century things that we would consider luxuries (never mind comforts) are readily available. It's not like people have to pay mess subs, buy there own uniform, the local paper or the latest DVD. Again I think were we're not on the same page is exactly what would a potential customer be looking for?

Throughout Star Trek starships paying call on remote outposts have offered their faculties as a change of scenery for those who have been isolated for extended stretches. I have to believe that that would be part of the ship's function out on the frontier... to help keep the frontier productive. I doubt that anyone would want to stake their lives on traders like Mudd or Jones, who would be just as likely to never stop by again as to overcharge for the simplest of items.
Of course not, I imagine they stake their lives on the regular supply ships from whatever organisation that is responsible for the Federations colonisation programs. I imagine ships like the Enterprise wouldn't be their primary source of resupply. On the odd occasion they would lend aid and relief I'm sure the crew's already ample facilities would suffice and I just have trouble imagining them leaving over even that much space that has not use other than to cater for the odd visitor and lay fallow in the mean time.

I think there is a massive gap between materially driven and the comforts of home. I'm not materially driven, but do own pictures, books and other comfort items. I don't live to acquire wealth (I live to acquire knowledge), but I don't shun things either.

Look at any of the crews cabins and you'll see... stuff. Are they materially driven because they have that stuff?
Granted, but as I said, the items you just listed I imagine would be produced on an as needed basis. Want a copy Thatched Cottage at Cordeville? Go down to stores and have a copy printed off on realistic imitation canvas with genuine oil paint texture effect. Want a hardback copy of Moby Dick? Just as easy and they can even make it look weathered and add that old musty book smell. Remember, this is a time where in a matter of minutes you can have three authentic sets of "tailor fitted" Nazi uniforms complete with medals, embroidery, insignia, cap, "leather" boots and (I think) replica weapons. Given the 3D printers and quick prototypers that are around today it's easy to imagine that in 250 odd years they are capable of making almost anything in the database, even before transporter based replicas were perfected.

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Tallguy wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
I totally agree on the whole "Starfleet isn't the Military" issue. Overtly militant fan designs are a huge pet peeve of mine! Can't stand the bloody things and don't get me started on "Starfleet Marines"!.
So who does the Federation call when war is declared upon them? (If there's an answer to this that isn't "Starfleet" then that's really cool.)
The Security Corps.

Starfleet seems to be a descendant of Navy, Coast Guard and NOAA. I tend to think of the "Navy" part that we've seen as being largely defensive and incorporated within the NOAA/ Coast Guard part. In fact, I'd go so far as to say its overarching historical dominance led to it providing the structure and tradition to Starfleet, even though many of those traditions were a part of the Coast Guard and NOAA as well.

And yet, I think a believable scenario for the hostile environment portrayed in TOS would lead to there being, in reserve, some serious force that we never saw. Purely military and largely uncrewed, serious -- very serious -- flying weaponry. The kind of thing that would clearly reveal just how much the Fleet had learned from encounters with aggressors like the Doomsday Machine, Nomad or V'ger. The culture would prevent this force from being activated until needed, but fear would demand it be there, in waiting, just in case.
My main issue with Starfleet being "military" is the implication that the Federation has a standing army ready to let rip and kick ass.
We know they don't, we've seen them at war and it IS the same Starfleet officers who would otherwise be studying nebula, charting planets and causing temporal paradoxes. The thing is we tend to get stuck with our preconceptions as to what a defensive force should be and what a life guard or police service should be. As worrying as it may sound, Starfleet is all of them and at the same time none of them. Explorers and scientist trained in combat, pilots dedicated to exploration and law enforcement.
Today such an organisation would be more powerful than the government it serves and nobody in their right mind would trust it as far as you can comfortable spit a double decker bus...but it's Star Trek and somehow they get away with it.
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Old April 4 2008, 01:41 AM   #352
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
So what specifically would you suppose would be on offer in this shop? I ask because I honestly can't think of anything other than knick knacks that wouldn't already be obtainable though the galley or the QM...
Why don't we start over again... but this time, do a quick search of the term QuarterMaster with regards to the Navy... when you are done, reread the thread starting with the first time I bring up the ship's stores. What I'm seeing is that you are really hard set on using the term QuarterMaster, which might be fine for the army... but not the navy.

The term was only used once that I know of in TOS, and that was in front of an Air Force officer. And even though that officer was Captain John Christopher, he was given a uniform with Lieutenant's stripes (his equivalent naval rank).
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Old April 4 2008, 01:57 AM   #353
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

According to MA it's been used more than once.
Regardless, whatever you call it, it still amounts to "bloke in charge of stuff-and-things", which is what we're talking about, no?
Oh and I found the reference to the E-D's equivalent to what you're talking about. Not that in the script it was called "the 24th Century equivalent of a ship's store".
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Old April 4 2008, 02:22 AM   #354
Shaw
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
According to MA it's been used more than once.
Ah... but not in TOS (which they didn't even list ). And this is, after all, my attempt at TOS deck plans. When I start an attempt at ENT, TNG or DS9 plans (which will never happen as I'm not that interested in those shows), I'll remember to refer to the ship's stores as QuarterMaster.

But in reference to this interesting exchange, I promise that the name over the entrance to the ship's main store will read Bloke's Stuff.
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Old April 4 2008, 08:44 AM   #355
Reverend
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Well that's Wiki for you!

Sure, if you're intentionally limiting yourself to purely what was seen in TOS then the other references don't apply. Personally I'm so used to thinking of them as one cohe...uh...vague related whole, that it becomes difficult to think of the shows as separate entities.

I suppose the more politically correct term would be "sapient entity in charge of stuff things and wotsernames".

I still stand by the assertion that what we might call a "creature comfort" is to the modern 23rd century Federation citizen what having a knife, fork and plate is to us.
Plus given the fabrication technology at their disposal, it seams giving cargo space over to "useless" items seams very inefficient compared to the more logical practice of storing raw materials in bulk and using them to fabricate whatever as and when it's wanted/needed, with the option to recycle object that are no longer wanted/required.
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Old April 4 2008, 11:37 AM   #356
Sean_McCormick
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

On the military issue: i always liked the way, Starfleet is organized in FASA's stuff, there is (among others) a Exporation Command, which command ships of exploration and a Military Command, which is in charge of straight military operations, which in peacetime mainly is defence of the Federation.
Going with the view of the"Age of Sail" navy, those also had massive Warfleets purely to protect their interest in a military way. While ships like Endavour, Resolution, Adventure and Bounty were conducting scientific missions, the Royal Navy had many ships of the line like Victory and also smaller vessels dedicated to the military role in waiting for the need for an military engagement.
After all, the UFP neighbours, among others, the Klingon and Romulan Empires. Those borders clearly need a standing guard.
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Old April 4 2008, 02:04 PM   #357
Warped9
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Shaw wrote: View Post
And this is, after all, my attempt at TOS deck plans.
And that's it in a nutshell and I salute you. I hold to the same approach when developing my TOS shuttlecraft plans.

You are trying to "complete" the ship and flesh her out as MJ and the TOS creators and writers might have envisioned her, trying to use their mindset and approach to design and planning.

For me this makes your work (as well as aridas' and CRA's) feel much more authentic than retconning all sorts of post TOS references into it.

It's why I called my shuttlecraft fuel supply the "antimatter bottle" rather than the "warp core." They may both be referring to the same thing, but the former is more specific while the latter is more a generalization. You may well need antimatter to have warp drive, but it isn't the antimatter in itself that creates the spacewarp field.
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Old April 4 2008, 02:24 PM   #358
USS Jack Riley
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Reverend wrote: View Post
My main issue with Starfleet being "military" is the implication that the Federation has a standing army ready to let rip and kick ass.

Totally OT here, but I promise to bring it back On Topic.

Wow Reverend for a Brit you have a very strong sense of what America's Founding Fathers thought when they were hashing out the Constitution! They felt that the Executive Branch (later the President) would be too tempted (being a mere human) to use a standing army to use against its own citizens or go on imperial conquests (hence the separation of powers so that only the Legislature could declare war and has the power of the purse to end, for all intents and purposes, the President's ability to wage war). It is also one of the reasons for the 2nd Amendment (not to get political here), but the Founding Fathers wanted to make sure that the citizens were able to defend their liberties against an opperessive government.

One of the reasons Washington was promoted so highly to be the first President was that he was not that type of person and would, therefore, set a precedent of proper Presidential authority.

Of course, all of this happed in 1787 when no one had even thought about the idea that someday it might not take months for 2 nations to go to war and actually engage each other in combat (as was usually the practice back then), or even end the customary practice (although it was already dying out at the time) of a temporary cessation of fighting so that the fighters could go home and plant and harvest crops.

Heck, the US didn't even have a standing navy until well after the States ratified Constitution. If memory serves, a true standing navy didn't come about until the War of 1812 and the ships that were used (among them the USS Constellation and her sister ship the USS Constitution - ther former is a museum in Baltimore Harbor and the latter is the only sailing vessel still listed on the Navy's active roster, I believe, and available for tours in Boston Harbor) were mothballed after the War for use in later conflicts.

Okay - American Civics 101 class is over (I hear the applause from around the world). So back On Topic.

Shaw - just to throw another term into the mix, are you familiar with "sutlers?" For a more thorough description check out these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutler

http://www.atsuttler.com/

I do not have any affiliation with the second site (or the first for that matter, obviously ). Sutlers, were not soldiers, and basically provided things not normally available to soldiers in their standard rations and the soldiers would buy them from the company sutler that followed the army. They sold coffee, sugar, etc. to supplement the standard rations of hardtack and salt pork.

Aside from the more apt description of a petrol/gas station convenience store (which is what we are basically talking about in this case) this might be a good way to tie in an historically accurate term to the area you are describing (of course the Ship's Purser and Quarter Master would serve the same purpose, but I have to use/justify my hard earned - okay, maybe not heard earned, but at least expensive, education somehow!).

Shaw One other question I had for you, totally unrelated to the above. Does the placement of the "rust ring" on the dorsal side of the primary hull lend itself to being the doors that blow off to allow escape boats or life pods to quickly evacuate the ship?

Regardless, you are doing a great job on this. It is clear that you are doing this for an absolute love of the subject (it sure isn't for the money!! ). Keep it up!
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Old April 4 2008, 04:13 PM   #359
Kirkunit
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Redfern wrote: View Post
.

Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea...
ZING!!!

Sincerely,

Bill
Thanks for the assist. BTW, that was written in the '70s and even then Douglas Adams thought digital watches were cheesy. (To be fair though, I should admit that my wife wears a Nike digital sports watch of some sort.)

Back on topic...
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Old April 4 2008, 04:33 PM   #360
Redfern
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Re: Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans

Kirkunit wrote: View Post
Redfern wrote: View Post
.

Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-eight million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea...
ZING!!!

Sincerely,

Bill
BTW, that was written in the '70s and even then Douglas Adams thought digital watches were cheesy.
Especially those earliest red LED units that required the other hand to press a button, thus illuminating the display. Hence Arthur Dent's concern when he saw his arms drifting into the sunset, "How am I to operate my digital watch now?"

Sincerely,

Bill
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