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Old March 31 2008, 02:27 AM   #16
jayrath
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Shatner is as good as his directors. Or did you think that his "KHAAAN" scream somehow managed to magically slip through, complete with orchestral punctuation and a camera SFX backoff on the planet?

Like all actors, nothing he does hits the screen unless tacitly approved or even called for by his director, the editor, the producer when viewing dailies . . .

Yes, he can get lazy and be excessive, but on the day, before the crew, that apparently was what the director wanted, or at least allowed.

Shoot, folks, feature films ain't no YouTube.
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Old March 31 2008, 02:52 AM   #17
Brutal Strudel
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Shaw wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Also, I take issue with your list...
That's fine, but if we take your measure of romantic encounters, then you would also need to remove first and second season episodes like Mudd's Women, The Enemy Within, Miri, Catspaw, Bread and Circuses, and A Private Little War. Don't take issue with just the third season and not apply the same standard to the other two.

Further, I don't recall blaming Shatner for Kirk's increasing libido... I just felt it was an unrequired change in the character. As for his rank having an effect, I've known tons of commanding officers, and none of them became playboys as a result.

Additionally, back story elements added later in the series and movies are different from them being their as back story originally. Kirk didn't have a child in TOS, that was added in the movies and should be considered as a further deviation from the original Kirk.

I look forward to your thoughts on Spock...
I wasn't suggesting it was the change in rank that magically changed Kirk's attitude but rather the accumulated experience and confidence that made him a bit less of a stiff. A man at 14, 24 and 34 will hopefully have evolved somewhat over those twenty years, and loosening up around around women should be a part of that. I'm hardly a playboy but I can joke with and talk to women in a way that would have been beyound me twenty years ago. Besides, as McCoy pointed out in the first season episode "Court Martial," Kirk had a lot of pretty "old friends." Seems he wasn't all about reading Spinoza...

And I'm quite happy to invalidate some of the 1st and 2nd season examples on your list--as I said, it's a bad list. But were it a good list, I think we'd see Kirk was at his most seductive in the second season. "Gamesters of Triskelion" and "Mirror, Mirror" spring to mind. Indeed, his coldest and most smarmy charming of a woman is quite possibly in the 1st season "Coscience of the King."

Anyway, it's a little disingenuous to say that you never blamed Shatner for any of this when your original post in this thread does just that: lays the blame for every change in Kirk's character from the Reed Richards figure you seem to want to reduce him to at the feet of the Shat.

As for Spock, I think the show made it clear that, in almost every way quantifiable, his intellect dwarfed that of all but the most brilliant humans (Dr. Daystrom, for example). And I got the impression that Kirk only occasionally beat Spock at chess--Spock was the ship's resident master, as Kirk said in "Charlie X." Of course Kirk would be shown to be Spock's superior in those intangible areas of will and intuition--he was the hero and the show was trying to appeal to that need of the common man to think he's as smart as the brainiacs. Remember, Kirk managed to whoop the intellectually and physically superior Khan, too, and that was in the first season.
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Old March 31 2008, 06:08 AM   #18
Shaw
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Anyway, it's a little disingenuous to say that you never blamed Shatner for any of this when your original post in this thread does just that: lays the blame for every change in Kirk's character from the Reed Richards figure you seem to want to reduce him to at the feet of the Shat.
No more or less than how disingenuous that very statement is on your part. I have never taken either the position that it was ALL Shatner's fault anymore than I've taken the position that I've NEVER given any of the blame to Shatner. I've always felt that there was plenty of blame for the direction Kirk went to go around. And the only time and place that I felt Shatner could be held to anything like that all or nothing position would be Star Trek V. But that is far beyond the topic here (which focuses on TOS), I haven't taken (nor will I accept being painted as having taken) such a position here.

Given that, it would be nice if you argued your points and let me argue mine, rather than attempting the very disingenuous tactic of trying to reframe the other person's position... unless, of course, you honestly don't believe you are up to defending your position. In the end all of this comes down to our opinions, and the fact that you are incline to attack my opinion as bad or disingenuous may mean that you aren't up to stating your own differing opinion in a way that you think others would understand. And seeing as I never brought up Reed Richards (nor do I know that character), it seems like another example of an attempt to put words in my mouth on your part.

You should be comfortable enough in your opinions to not be frightened by the differing opinions of others. I would be disappointed if at the end of this anyone actually changed their minds on Kirk. But I think it is below everyone here to stoop to the tactics your attempting, so lets try to steer clear of them from here on out.

Lets look at some of this other stuff, assuming that you'll return to a civilized discussion on the topic.

I wasn't suggesting it was the change in rank that magically changed Kirk's attitude but rather the accumulated experience and confidence that made him a bit less of a stiff. A man at 14, 24 and 34 will hopefully have evolved somewhat over those twenty years, and loosening up around around women should be a part of that. I'm hardly a playboy but I can joke with and talk to women in a way that would have been beyound me twenty years ago. Besides, as McCoy pointed out in the first season episode "Court Martial," Kirk had a lot of pretty "old friends." Seems he wasn't all about reading Spinoza.
Well, maybe we should consider the fact that that was put forward by McCoy, some one who had known Kirk for all of about a year at that point.

I'm not sure I could speak on the changes between 14 and 34 that a man would go through when dealing with girls seeing as I met my first wife when I was 16 (and she was 25) and we were together until I was about 30. I effectively missed the "awkward with girls" phase most guys might go through, so I really don't know what changes might normally happen.

And I'm quite happy to invalidate some of the 1st and 2nd season examples on your list--as I said, it's a bad list. But were it a good list, I think we'd see Kirk was at his most seductive in the second season. "Gamesters of Triskelion" and "Mirror, Mirror" spring to mind. Indeed, his coldest and most smarmy charming of a woman is quite possibly in the 1st season "Coscience of the King."
I wouldn't argue against his actions in Coscience of the King, but both parties were working toward alternative objectives.

And I wasn't saying that he was shy or unwilling to approach women... which seems to be another example of you arguing from a position of absolutes. You seem to be taking what I say as Kirk had no romantic tendencies when in fact what I was saying was that Kirk didn't fit the girl of the week type of person that was later pushed onto the character.

I'm sure that framing my arguments in these black and white terms makes you feel better about your position, but I have never taken those extreme positions that you are trying desperately hard to make it seem like I've taken. So again, if you aren't up to arguing your own points without trying to make it seem like I've taken positions I haven't, then this discussion will be over very quickly. While I'm interested in how you see Kirk, please don't attempt to tell me (or others) how I am seeing him.

As for Spock, I think the show made it clear that, in almost every way quantifiable, his intellect dwarfed that of all but the most brilliant humans (Dr. Daystrom, for example). And I got the impression that Kirk only occasionally beat Spock at chess--Spock was the ship's resident master, as Kirk said in "Charlie X." Of course Kirk would be shown to be Spock's superior in those intangible areas of will and intuition--he was the hero and the show was trying to appeal to that need of the common man to think he's as smart as the brainiacs. Remember, Kirk managed to whoop the intellectually and physically superior Khan, too, and that was in the first season.
Well, you bring up Court Martial, so why don't we let Kirk speak for himself...
"It's not all bad, Mr. Spock. Who knows. You may be able to beat your next captain at chess."
Sounds like more than occasionally to me.

As for Kirk's abilities with computers, lets also look at an exchange from that same episode...
Spock: Someone, either accidentally or deliberately, adjusted the programming and, therefore, the memory banks of that computer.
Cogley: Could that have had an effect on the visual playback we saw?
Shaw: Object! The witness would be making a conclusion.
Stone: Sustained.
Cogley: Hypothetically, Mr. Spock, hypothetically, Miss Shaw, if what you suggest had been done, it would be beyond the capabilities of most men. Is that true?
Spock: Affirmative.
Cogley: What men aboard ship would it not be beyond?
Spock: The captain, myself, and the records officer.
Cogley: Mm-hmm. And at the moment, you have no records officer.
Spock: Affirmative. Until he was lost, our records officer was Lieutenant Commander Finney.
Two references to Kirk's intellectual abilities in a single episode, helpful.

As for Spock's "intellect dwarfed that of all but the most brilliant humans", the show didn't show anything any where near that extreme a view. People like Kirk, McCoy and Scott were often shown to be on par with Spock, and Spock wasn't the obvious choice in areas where their respective expertise overlapped. The only thing that Spock had as an intellectual power over others was the ability to calculate numbers quickly (and we assume accurately) in his head... a quality that, while cool, has never (in my experience) been a good measure of intelligence. What we were lead to believe was that Spock was physically stronger than humans, but little more.

But then again, I'm sure that to someone who feels intellectually inferior to brainiacs (interesting term), Spock's character would seem very threatening to them... I would hope that you don't fit that description, but it would explain your position here.
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Old March 31 2008, 06:36 AM   #19
A beaker full of death
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Shaw wrote: View Post
Well, you bring up Court Martial, so why don't we let Kirk speak for himself...
"It's not all bad, Mr. Spock. Who knows. You may be able to beat your next captain at chess."
Sounds like more than occasionally to me.

Actually, you're missing something vital to the Kirk character here - Kirk doesn't beat Spock at chess because he is his intellectual superior. He beats him because he is the more instinctive player.
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Old March 31 2008, 08:13 AM   #20
Shaw
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

A beaker full of death wrote: View Post
Actually, you're missing something vital to the Kirk character here - Kirk doesn't beat Spock at chess because he is his intellectual superior. He beats him because he is the more instinctive player.
Well, lets be clear... and it is important that it is clear, I'm not saying that any one of the main characters is intellectually superior to the others... Spock isn't above Kirk, and neither is Kirk above Spock. So you are right, Kirk's intuition runs rings around Spock's slavish devotion to logic. And I've always felt that it was that gift of stepping back from logic that the Kirk friendship gave to the Spock character.

And also, I've always felt that Spock (even more than full Vulcanians) followed logic to the point of it being a failing. And it was part of the character in that he was over compensating for not being fully Vulcanian.

But for those that think that Spock (and other Vulcanians) were far above humans in intellect, ask yourselves this question... how much time would you spend with someone who is mentally challenged? Would you marry someone who was 50 or 60 IQ points below you? Would a race of people (the Vulcans) be able to work side by side with humans if they thought they were beneath them? Even in later Trek, humans are behind technologically in the beginning, but not in intellectual potential.

As I stated earlier, Spock's logic was the antithesis to the normal human emotionalism. Logic doesn't imply superior intelligence (though it is an attractive way at looking at some problems), and shouldn't be the only way to view the world (as shown by Kirk's abilities early in the series).
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Old March 31 2008, 11:34 AM   #21
Brutal Strudel
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Shaw wrote: View Post
Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Anyway, it's a little disingenuous to say that you never blamed Shatner for any of this when your original post in this thread does just that: lays the blame for every change in Kirk's character from the Reed Richards figure you seem to want to reduce him to at the feet of the Shat.
No more or less than how disingenuous that very statement is on your part. I have never taken either the position that it was ALL Shatner's fault anymore than I've taken the position that I've NEVER given any of the blame to Shatner. I've always felt that there was plenty of blame for the direction Kirk went to go around. And the only time and place that I felt Shatner could be held to anything like that all or nothing position would be Star Trek V. But that is far beyond the topic here (which focuses on TOS), I haven't taken (nor will I accept being painted as having taken) such a position here.

Given that, it would be nice if you argued your points and let me argue mine, rather than attempting the very disingenuous tactic of trying to reframe the other person's position... unless, of course, you honestly don't believe you are up to defending your position. In the end all of this comes down to our opinions, and the fact that you are incline to attack my opinion as bad or disingenuous may mean that you aren't up to stating your own differing opinion in a way that you think others would understand. And seeing as I never brought up Reed Richards (nor do I know that character), it seems like another example of an attempt to put words in my mouth on your part.

You should be comfortable enough in your opinions to not be frightened by the differing opinions of others. I would be disappointed if at the end of this anyone actually changed their minds on Kirk. But I think it is below everyone here to stoop to the tactics your attempting, so lets try to steer clear of them from here on out.

Lets look at some of this other stuff, assuming that you'll return to a civilized discussion on the topic.

I wasn't suggesting it was the change in rank that magically changed Kirk's attitude but rather the accumulated experience and confidence that made him a bit less of a stiff. A man at 14, 24 and 34 will hopefully have evolved somewhat over those twenty years, and loosening up around around women should be a part of that. I'm hardly a playboy but I can joke with and talk to women in a way that would have been beyound me twenty years ago. Besides, as McCoy pointed out in the first season episode "Court Martial," Kirk had a lot of pretty "old friends." Seems he wasn't all about reading Spinoza.
Well, maybe we should consider the fact that that was put forward by McCoy, some one who had known Kirk for all of about a year at that point.

I'm not sure I could speak on the changes between 14 and 34 that a man would go through when dealing with girls seeing as I met my first wife when I was 16 (and she was 25) and we were together until I was about 30. I effectively missed the "awkward with girls" phase most guys might go through, so I really don't know what changes might normally happen.

And I'm quite happy to invalidate some of the 1st and 2nd season examples on your list--as I said, it's a bad list. But were it a good list, I think we'd see Kirk was at his most seductive in the second season. "Gamesters of Triskelion" and "Mirror, Mirror" spring to mind. Indeed, his coldest and most smarmy charming of a woman is quite possibly in the 1st season "Coscience of the King."
I wouldn't argue against his actions in Coscience of the King, but both parties were working toward alternative objectives.

And I wasn't saying that he was shy or unwilling to approach women... which seems to be another example of you arguing from a position of absolutes. You seem to be taking what I say as Kirk had no romantic tendencies when in fact what I was saying was that Kirk didn't fit the girl of the week type of person that was later pushed onto the character.

I'm sure that framing my arguments in these black and white terms makes you feel better about your position, but I have never taken those extreme positions that you are trying desperately hard to make it seem like I've taken. So again, if you aren't up to arguing your own points without trying to make it seem like I've taken positions I haven't, then this discussion will be over very quickly. While I'm interested in how you see Kirk, please don't attempt to tell me (or others) how I am seeing him.




As for Spock, I think the show made it clear that, in almost every way quantifiable, his intellect dwarfed that of all but the most brilliant humans (Dr. Daystrom, for example). And I got the impression that Kirk only occasionally beat Spock at chess--Spock was the ship's resident master, as Kirk said in "Charlie X." Of course Kirk would be shown to be Spock's superior in those intangible areas of will and intuition--he was the hero and the show was trying to appeal to that need of the common man to think he's as smart as the brainiacs. Remember, Kirk managed to whoop the intellectually and physically superior Khan, too, and that was in the first season.
Well, you bring up Court Martial, so why don't we let Kirk speak for himself...
"It's not all bad, Mr. Spock. Who knows. You may be able to beat your next captain at chess."
Sounds like more than occasionally to me.




As for Kirk's abilities with computers, lets also look at an exchange from that same episode...
Spock: Someone, either accidentally or deliberately, adjusted the programming and, therefore, the memory banks of that computer.
Cogley: Could that have had an effect on the visual playback we saw?
Shaw: Object! The witness would be making a conclusion.
Stone: Sustained.
Cogley: Hypothetically, Mr. Spock, hypothetically, Miss Shaw, if what you suggest had been done, it would be beyond the capabilities of most men. Is that true?
Spock: Affirmative.
Cogley: What men aboard ship would it not be beyond?
Spock: The captain, myself, and the records officer.
Cogley: Mm-hmm. And at the moment, you have no records officer.
Spock: Affirmative. Until he was lost, our records officer was Lieutenant Commander Finney.
Two references to Kirk's intellectual abilities in a single episode, helpful.

As for Spock's "intellect dwarfed that of all but the most brilliant humans", the show didn't show anything any where near that extreme a view. People like Kirk, McCoy and Scott were often shown to be on par with Spock, and Spock wasn't the obvious choice in areas where their respective expertise overlapped. The only thing that Spock had as an intellectual power over others was the ability to calculate numbers quickly (and we assume accurately) in his head... a quality that, while cool, has never (in my experience) been a good measure of intelligence. What we were lead to believe was that Spock was physically stronger than humans, but little more.

But then again, I'm sure that to someone who feels intellectually inferior to brainiacs (interesting term), Spock's character would seem very threatening to them... I would hope that you don't fit that description, but it would explain your position here.
Instead of addressing all the nasty things in this post point by point, I'll limit my response to one example: the captain/lieutenant matter. Look, you either deliberately misinterpretted the point I was obviously making or you are a moron. Which is it? You've been moving the goalposts all through this "debate": in one post, Kirk is so much a nebbish a needs his best friend to set him up with a girl, in another you never suggest any such thing. Anyway, I'm done with you.

EDIT: I had forgotten the "beat your next capatin at chess" line. So you make one good point in all that typing. Nicely done, old bean.
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Old March 31 2008, 04:08 PM   #22
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Why not calm down a bit, everyone? It's just a TV show!
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Old March 31 2008, 04:10 PM   #23
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
Instead of addressing all the nasty things in this post point by point, I'll limit my response to one example: the captain/lieutenant matter. Look, you either deliberately misinterpretted the point I was obviously making or you are a moron. Which is it? You've been moving the goalposts all through this "debate": in one post, Kirk is so much a nebbish a needs his best friend to set him up with a girl, in another you never suggest any such thing. Anyway, I'm done with you.
Look, it isn't my problem if neither reading comprehension nor logic are your forte, and trying to redefine my position for me won't change anything.

The fact that Kirk's best friend helped set him up is just that... a fact of the character. This fact is one boundary of Kirk's character. In the first season of TOS this boundary of Kirk's romantic life exist with other boundaries such as The City on the Edge of Forever and The Conscience of the King. These events (and all other romantic encounters within season 1) create an envelope within which the Kirk character's romantic properties exist.

Now, with each season following the first (and later in the movies), one would hope that a much better defined area would emerge (you know, rounding out the character, which is where this term comes from). My feeling is that starting with the third season the Kirk character jumped out of the envelope that had taken shape in the first two seasons. Not only that, but that the jump actually started redefining the character from who it was originally.

Sorry, no goal posts here... and I won't let you try to arbitrarily bind me to any one boundary event. And maybe that is why you thought my list was bad and why you are unable to give us an example of a good list... my list included episodes which I felt defined Kirk's romantic boundaries, while you were trying to argue one specific boundary event (which wasn't up for debate I would point out).

The same method of analysis is true when looking at Kirk's intelligence. The character of the first season is very intelligent, and I think it continues through the second season but drops off (uncharacteristically) in the third.

Still, it is most likely best that you exit at this time. Your inability to follow either what is going on or link me to a position that matches what you are up to debating has made you increasingly hostile. That type of frustration means that even if you had the chance to understand what is being said, you have long past the stage of being able to willingly listen. The logic of this is lost on you (specially as you can't follow arguments larger than a sound bite) and name calling seems to be your fall back position.
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Old March 31 2008, 05:29 PM   #24
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Guys, could you dial back the rhetoric just a bit? I know that sometimes the discussion can get heated but there's no reason to make it personal.
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Old March 31 2008, 05:54 PM   #25
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
Why not calm down a bit, everyone? It's just a TV show!
Bingo.
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Old March 31 2008, 07:16 PM   #26
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

[quote=Shaw;1479087]
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
But here is some friendly advice... don't start a thread asking for people's opinions of Kirk/Shatner if you are going to flip out when they don't deify Shatner the way yours do.
I agree with you on this. I thought I was coming into a discussion, not a Shatner obsessive rant.
Having met William Shatner on several occasions I can say that he's a self-obsessed egomaniac who hated the fans except when it bolstered his wallet or hurt his Hollywood image. As late as the 1990's he demanded $25,000.00 for a 15-30 minute appearance at a convention WITH limo, meals, hotel (whether he used the room or not... usually not), airfare and security escort at the convention (I guess he was afraid of his own fans).
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Old March 31 2008, 07:32 PM   #27
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
NCC-1701 wrote: View Post
Why not calm down a bit, everyone? It's just a TV show!
Bingo.
Well stated.
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Old April 2 2008, 11:10 PM   #28
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Re: shades of KIRK/Shatner

Shaw wrote: View Post
See, in the movies, Shatner was losing his youth and having a hard time transitioning into his later years. Why in the world would Kirk care about turning 50? Kirk (like Picard) should have been comfortable with himself and his command well passed 80 without missing a beat! But age for an actor is a totally different proposition than it is for a commanding officer. Nemoy didn't seem to have any problems with aging, and it is hard to think of when he got old... but then again, he had a lot going for him off camera as well as on camera, so he didn't worry about it (or at least he didn't let it define him).
Just a quick comment that I was surprised to see not addressed already (okay, so I only browsed the thread...). The first time we saw Kirk feeling insecure about his age was in The Deadly Years, which was in the second season. This establishes pretty clearly that Kirk (the character) has some pretty deep-seated issues about getting old, long before Shatner turned fifty.
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