DS9 should get Remastered

[Mr. Laser Beam]

James Pike wrote:

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You act like they can't do it because of the SFX shots, but how did they do it for TOS? Sure they re-did the effects, but the scenes with people in it weren't reshot. You just run them through a filter to clean it up.

Videotape was never used for TOS. It was all done on film, even the effects. So technically, TOS could have been aired in HD without any redoing - they just chose to do all new effects, and to remaster the show.

For TNG, DS9 and Voyager, however, they did use tape (for all editing, and for the effects). That makes it impossible to air 'natively' in HD.

Upconverting is not at all the same thing as native HD. Not even close. Upconversion gives a sort of "false HD" that may look good*, but it is not true, native, "real" high definition.

*Upconversion is, in the final analysis, a completely useless marketing gimmick. ALL HDTVs must, by definition, upconvert, since if they didn't, you would get a tiny window of picture surrounded by black, whenever you viewed standard def programming.

[SoM]

Basically:

TOS was completely done on 35mm film - editing was done by cutting and splicing film, physically; and phaser shots were done by painting on the film, physically.

The space FX were redone for TOS-R because the composited model film was in a horrible state - in addition to the multi-generation compositing which shows up in SD, and would have stood out horrendously in HD

TNG was wholly shot on 35mm film, including the motion-control models which made up most of the space FX, but all editing was done on 480i NTSC video. All phaser shots, replicator effects, LCARS shots, any glowy stuff, etc - even that net from Encounter at Farpoint - only exist as 480i video. In addition, the episodes weren't even preliminarily cut on 35mm film.

To do a HD version of TNG (or "TNG-R") would be possible, but the episodes would need to be completely reassembled from the 35mm camera negatives, and every effect other than the motion-control models themselves would need to be CGIed from scratch (which includes the compositing of the models into one image). A glimpse of how this would go can be seen in the footage reused for ENT's finale, where a replicator shot had to be remade.

To do a HD version of DS9/DS9-R would be even trickier, since all the TNG stuff above applies (plus add in the changeling shapeshifting as an additional source of Stuff To Do), but as the series went on they started making more and more use of CGI for the ship models - often composited with models in one shot when you see a fleet - and all of that would need redone [and VOY heads even further down the CGI route].

[darthgordon]

I'd love to see this stuff in HD. As already pointed out there are FX problems. It may not be all that bad b/c the models were filmed on film (that sounds redundant). It still seems like it might be a little more expensive than I think Paramount/ CBS would be willing to spend.

I'd really love to see all Trek upgraded for HD. I don't know if it will happen though.

For now, I'll settle for the movies. I'm going to guess that TMP might be the easiest b/c of the work that was done during the special edition.

I'm going to guess that everything from WOK up is going to need some work where the FX is concerned.

[M]

darthgordon wrote:

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I'm going to guess that everything from WOK up is going to need some work where the FX is concerned.

Let's hope not.

[SoM]

darthgordon wrote:

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I'd love to see this stuff in HD. As already pointed out there are FX problems. It may not be all that bad b/c the models were filmed on film (that sounds redundant). It still seems like it might be a little more expensive than I think Paramount/ CBS would be willing to spend.

I'd really love to see all Trek upgraded for HD. I don't know if it will happen though.

Well, basically what it would need is for all the post-production to be done over (the individual model elements exist on film, but "kitbashed"/background-only models probably wouldn't stand up to the increased scrutiny, and all the CGI work would need redone). You're right in that that makes it a matter of cost. Who knows if they'll ever think it worth it? (probably not unless they start to struggle to sell the shows in SD at all ).

[CaptainJon]

I've been watching the last 3 seasons straight through on DVD, and I don't think they need to be remastered. Maybe for HD like an above poster said, but not in terms of visual effects. Even nine years later, the visual effects still hold up very well today. I've watched the space battles in The Way of the Warrior, A Call to Arms, Sacrifice of Angels, and all the other big space battle episodes and they still continue to amaze me with the wonderful quality of awesomeness in them. The visual effects hold up incredibly well and I don't think they need to be changed. Maybe the only one that I would change (if at all, but even that's not really a must) is What You Leave Behind where they had spent the rest of their budget and had to use a lot of stock battle footage, but even that is pushing it.

[Harvey]

Again, this isn't so much a matter of changing things as a matter of ugrading the resolution. The Deep Space Nine effects were produced on video, at 480p. The show was, of course, shot on film, which is many times the resolution of HD (1080p). However, in order for everything to look right on HD the effects will have to, in the very least, be re-rendered in the higher resolution of 1080p.

Not that I wouldn't mind What You Leave Behind, as well as the last episode with Kor, seeing some major changes. But I could live with both if they didn't.

[SoM]

Hirogen Alpha wrote:

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The Deep Space Nine effects were produced on video, at 480p.

480i, not 480p (the rest of what you said is right).

[vedek loki]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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Not even to fix obvious errors, like the second Defiant's registry number?

Why? How does such a thing relate to the quality of the story or characters? Goofs happen on TV shows and movies. I don't like the notion that George Lucas has put in people's heads that it's OK to tamper with art/entertainment in this way. Should we fix the slightly crooked smile on the Mona Lisa, too?

My DS9 DVDs are just fine. My only complaints have been the flimsy packaging, and the lack of a "Play All Episodes" button on each disc. Having to go through two levels of menus just to start an episode, and to have to climb back out and then back in for the next episode, was a goofy idea.

But I don't need 'improved' CGI or any gaffes fixed, thanks. They don't detract from my viewing pleasure one bit.

[M]

^ From your mouth to the Prophet's ears!

[Captain Fine]

All the recent talk about TNG remastered really made me ache for DS9 to be remastered. I think TNG is shoe-in for remastering, it's only a matter of time. I think DS9 is less safe a bet. But there are definitely things that can benefit from it. E.g. I would change the Melbourne back to a Nebula-class starship, for one. I would put more different ships at Wolf 359 (e.g. Akira-class). I'd tone down the use of Mirandas and Excelsiors in the big battle scenes. I'd definitely give the second Defiant it's proper registry (NCC-75633) (unfortunately, they kept Constellation as NCC-1017 which is as glaring an error as imaginable so I'm not too optimistic. in my mind Constellation will always be 1710).

[Dream]

As an fan of DS9 I would like that. But CBS won't do it since it'll take lots of money to do and DS9 was only a fraction as popular as TOS and TNG which means less sales.

[Captain Fine]

But as has been pointed out in both this and the TNG remastered threads, they can't do an HD aka Blu-Ray set of either unless they DO spend the money to go and remaster the whole things. I know it'll take money, but these are long-term properties are they not? So they have to go back and do it eventually, unless they don't want to ever have TNG and DS9 available to people with Blu-Ray and beyond.

[Cyke101]

If a remastered DS9 means more battle scenes in Sacrifice of the Angels, as well as seeing some off-screen engagements, then I'm all for it.

One thing that strikes me about "Valiant" is how obviously CGI some scenes turn out to be. DS9 ship battles tend to be crisp and clear, but that episode's effects just looked sloppy, a rare misfire for the FX house.

[Captain Fine]

Cyke101 wrote:

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If a remastered DS9 means more battle scenes in Sacrifice of the Angels, as well as seeing some off-screen engagements, then I'm all for it.

I think it was mentioned in one of the other threads that we won't be able to see any MORE scenes. Just redone scenes. They're already scored, so we can't add or subtract anything. Just replace what's there. Lots of stock footage in WYLB to replace.