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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old November 10 2007, 12:59 PM   #16
Frodo Lives
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Location: A planet of outlaws...
Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Something I've no idea if it has been brought up before, but would a starship be able to replicate a NEW warp core if they were forced to eject or lost the old one? Certainly the only time we've seen a successful warp-core ejection (Voy's Day of Honour) there was no sign of the dueterium tanks or anti-matter generators being ejected.

Could this mean that if the core blows or suffers major damage, Starfleet ships of the 24th century are just able to replicate a new one?

Could this be why we've never heard of the spare warp-core being held aboard starships? Because it isn't necessary? The ship can just whip up a new one?

I'm not sure how dilithium would fix into this hypnosis, but maybe ships of the 24th century carry a stock pile of the stuff incase of damage to/ loss of the original?
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Old November 10 2007, 01:46 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Probably it is possible to replicate just about anything in theory: if they lose the primary hull, they can replicate another. Given enough time and resources. Which they probably do not have.

A functioning warp core is probably an important thing in keeping the replicators going. If you lose one, you lose the other. It might take something like three years to replicate a new core even if Janeway could find a safe haven with suitable resources.

And dilithium, antimatter, gold-pressed latinum, live kittens and basically everything we ever heard of can be replicated, if one puts enough effort into it. Or at least we have never heard of anything being unreplicable. It just isn't sensible to replicate a kilogram of antimatter by using a replicator that requires ten kilograms of antimatter for power...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 10 2007, 03:02 PM   #18
GodThingFormerly
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Location: An "American" in Friedrichshafen, Deutschland
Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Timo said:
Probably it is possible to replicate just about anything in theory: if they lose the primary hull, they can replicate another. Given enough time and resources. Which they probably do not have.
The late 21st century interplanetary transfer vehicle Theseus featured in Peter Watts' 2006 hard LitSF novel Blindsight (available for purchase from Amazon or as a free download under the CCPL from the author's website) is equipped with a NanoFabrication facility that can rebuild - using onboard reaction mass as the raw materials source - any damaged component of the ship along with manufacturing entirely news ones (heavy weapons, radiation shielding, etc.) from software product models residing in the spacecraft's onboard computer. I've long thought that such an industrial replication technology would be a baseline requirement for Starfleet starships engaged in autonomous galactic exploration missions from the TMP-era onward. Whether it be catastrophic damage due to a failed attempt at first contact or care of a natural astrophysical phenomenon, the starship remnant could limp to the nearest Population 1 (high-metallicity) star system, settle down in the local asteroid belt, and get to work regenerating itself - even if only to the extent required for a functional warp drive - which may take several years depending upon the number of replacement parts required. Of course, such a procedure would only become necessary if rescue within a reasonable period of time is not a viable option. On a related note, the same replication system could also fabricate a photon-energized anti-matter generator designed to be deployed into a grazing orbit around the stellar primary in order to manufacture the ship's fuel supply.

TGT
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Old November 10 2007, 04:52 PM   #19
aridas sofia
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

That is a beautifully functional and yet magically fascinating design.
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Old November 10 2007, 08:45 PM   #20
Frodo Lives
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Why such a long-time to rebuild the warp-core?

Certainly, it ain't exactly a cup of earl grey, but it isn't that big. As I mentioned before, when we did see a core ejected, the deuterium and anti-matter tanks didn't appear to go with it, just the core itself, about 3-4 storeys high and but not that thick - so what would be the need to replicate anti-matter and deuterium? And as for dilithium which does appear to be situated in some warp-cores (judging by Scotty's comments in TNG's Relics) and as far as we know isn't replicatable (Judging by the fact the Federation still mines the stuff), maybe the ship does have some spares?

As for how much-power it would take, who knows? We don't know how much mass the warp-core has or all the specific materials are required. But we have seen people use the transporter while the ship is on emergency power before, so the replicators should still work without the core and obviously ships' should still have the fusion cores for their impulse engines - maybe as long it's just the core that's damaged/lost, a Starfleet ship could whip up a new one lickedy split.

And by lickedy split I mean around two weeks, with an engineering crew working round the clock. But hey, I'm guessing, this is just a wild, crazy idea and I should probably be locked up because of.
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Old November 10 2007, 09:24 PM   #21
USS Excelsior
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Or they could have a spare or two just in case.
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Old November 12 2007, 11:05 AM   #22
Timo
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

It probably isn't a matter of absolutes, despite the overall tendency of Trek to simplify things.

Just because you can replicate a hamburger doesn't necessarily mean you can replicate a live cow grazing on a field - even if both are made of basically identical substances. There would be practical limitations ranging from resolution issues to the size of the replicator itself. A dedicated cow replicator could still no doubt be built, but the could->should->would logic would be lacking.

Similarly, a large number of small devices might never be a practical substitute for a single large device in application A (say, warp drive) while the reverse might be true for application B (say, replicators). We might think otherwise, but the people who "actually" build and operate these things in the Trek universe clearly know better.

The self-repairing and replenishing nanostructured starship common in scifi (see Greg Bear's Anvil of Stars for a somewhat better-known take than TGT's near-realistic example) might be something that Starfleet could do. But it might still be inferior to what Starfleet could do with more "basic" technologies, in terms of the doctrine of the day. Today's doctrine shuns the superior economy of sail propulsion in favor of the flexibility of fossil fuels - and even the doctrine of the late 1800s shunned sail in favor of coal, despite the deep inflexibility of coal propulsion back in the day. The "non-reuseable" starship preferred by Starfleet might remain in favor for a long time, too.

What possible shortcomings could a nano-repairing starship have? Certainly those would be built without onboard spares or conventional repair capabilities, just like today's destroyers do not carry sail rigs "just in case". A failure of the nanomachinery, probably on programming level, might then leave the ship in deeper trouble than a conventional counterpart. Also, were a ship to be given good nanorepair capabilities, most of its hull would have to consist of nanoprocessors or nanoprocessible materials - a possible weakness in situations where "dumb" bulk armor could have superior properties. Attrition of nanomachinery would also be a problem in combat: which parts of the remaining ship do the machines have to eat to replace the fallen comrades who didn't even leave any tiny corpses behind for nourishment?

The ability to utilize a grazing opportunity to the max would be a plus for both nanoships and conventional ones, of course. But perhaps industrial replicators are close enough to ideal grazing, as evidenced by the ability of USS Voyager to stay in such a pristine condition through those seven years?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 26 2007, 10:56 PM   #23
seekertwo
Commander
 
Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

USS Excelsior said:
Or they could have a spare or two just in case.
Makes sense....keep a disassembled one in a cargo bay and, in an emergency, reassemble it in Engineering.....

Of course, the reassembly may take awhile--possibly a week. That explains why Torres & Paris went after the ejected one in "Day of Honor".
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Old November 27 2007, 02:07 AM   #24
AudioBridge
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Ok, I'm obviously mistaken about how Star Fleet warp drive works. I thought that the warp coils in the nacelles were energized by plasma from the warp core in sequence to produce cascading subspace fields that propelled the ship forward. I did not think the nacelles created a “bubble” around the ship. If so, what’s actually propelling it?
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Old November 27 2007, 03:41 AM   #25
Vance
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Depends on your source...
In TOS, the warp drive INCLUDED propulsion units.
In TMP, the impulse engines provided thrust within the field
In TNG, the engines are similar to TMP
In VOY, the warp drive is again including thrust
In ENT, depends on the episode
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Old November 27 2007, 09:57 AM   #26
Timo
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

How so?

In TOS, warp motion was possible without impulse engines, at least in "Obsession". Impulse engines didn't glow markedly at any mode of operation.

TOS-R adds some impulse glow during sublight accelerations, but otherwise matches TOS.

In TMP, we got no evidence either way. Impulse glow intensified during sublight accelerations, but otherwise was always there to some degree, on idle mode and warp alike.

In TNG, we got no evidence either way. Impulse engines glowed at warp, impulse and standstill alike; glow apparently wasn't related to thrust, but more to power generation, and we did hear that impulse power could be used for things other than propulsion.

In VOY, we got no evidence either way. Impulse engines didn't glow markedly.

In ENT, we got no evidence either way. Impulse engines glowed all the time; the ones at the ends of the warp booms might have been part of the warp power system somehow, or then not, but motion at warp never involved dialogue that would call for impulse engines, or visuals that would highlight the role of impulse engines.

I'd say we would be perfectly well off saying that all warp motion in all of Star Trek is achieved solely by the warp coils.

As for how this propulsion happens, all we've got on screen is several TNG graphics of a pulsating field around the ship. Apparently, this pulsation can take many different shapes, and toying with them (like in "Where No One Has Gone Before") is a valid pastime for people interested in improving warp propulsion - there is no single working configuration.

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Old November 27 2007, 10:30 AM   #27
GodThingFormerly
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Timo said:
In TMP, we got no evidence either way. Impulse glow intensified during sublight accelerations, but otherwise was always there to some degree, on idle mode and warp alike.
The impulse engines are disengaged during warp flight:





TGT
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Old November 27 2007, 10:52 AM   #28
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Ah, but is that "warp flight", or "coasting inside somebody else's warp field"?

Seriously, though, thanks. What sort of nacelle glow or deflector dish glow did we see outside the V'ger cloud, as opposed to warping in free space, or staying put? (Original vs. DE? I don't own the latter, and my copy of the former is a discolored piece of shit.)

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 27 2007, 11:08 AM   #29
GodThingFormerly
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Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

^ Aside from the wormhole sequence, that is the only shot of the NCC-1701 Refit at warp in TMP where we can see the impulse engine nozzles. As for the deflector dish glow, yellow (low power mode) is apparently for standby/orbital maneuvering velocities and blue (high power mode) is for impulse and warp velocities, although the scene near the end of the film where the Enterprise slowly emerges from V'ger's transcendence over Earth has it glowing blue. The warp nacelles, on the other hand, only glow at warp.

TGT
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Old November 27 2007, 11:16 AM   #30
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Shuttle's warp capabilities

Thank you. That leaves only one question, then... In the picture above, are the warp engines glowing or not? That is, how intense is the glow "normally"?

Timo Saloniemi
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