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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 4 2014, 04:56 AM   #31
Dukhat
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Timo wrote: View Post
But Sybok himself would not have known that. Even Kirk believed that Sybok was right (as in "logical", not as in "justified") in drafting the services of a top-of-the-line starship - although according to conventional wisdom, even that wouldn't be enough to get past the Barrier.
True, but Sybok is, after all, a Vulcan. He should have logically thought his plan out better. Before instigating an interstellar incident and possibly getting himself killed in the process, why didn't he just try to get to ShakaRee by himself? (see below)

The novelization offers the idea that Sybok had found a new technology capable of penetrating the Barrier, and the Klingons copied that. But a possibly more appealing idea is that the Barrier was at least partially under the control of God - and when He managed to lure in a telepath whose mind He could sense and influence, He knew exactly when to exert His powers and make the Barrier momentarily weaker (that is, when Sybok's mind registered next to the Barrier).

Or then the Barrier was under the control of God's jailors, and those decided that Sybok was accessory to God's crimes by virtue of his telepathic contact, and therefore briefly opened the Barrier to imprison Sybok, too. When the issue became moot with Sybok's death, the Barrier was flung open again to let innocent bystanders leave.

It's also possible that the Barrier always did exactly what we saw: it let ships through, propelled them to Sha Ka Ree perhaps using some sort of a high speed conduit, and never let them return - not because the Barrier would be one-way, but because God lurked in the center. During the course of history, He might have tried to capture dozens or perhaps thousands of ships in like manner, only to be thwarted on the outward leg by His captors every time - and thus He tried harder, sending telepathic lies to His victims to convince them that stronger and stronger ships were needed. Any old tub could get in, but only a strong ship could get out if and when God was aboard and attempting escape. Or then a ship whose resourceful skipper managed to escape the clutches of God, and Kirk was the first, returning to tell the story and don the T-shirt.
And any of those options are all fine and dandy...except there's no indication in the actual movie that any of the above was the case.

Ithekro wrote: View Post
They probably could have gotten away with having a Romulan ship in the film, had they decided to keep the original idea from Star Trek III, in that the Bird of Prey was a stolen or copy of a Romulan design. Thus the Romulan group would arrive in the Bird of Prey, while the Klingons would arrive in a Battlecruiser from TMP.
Or conversely, that the Romulans could have used a KTinga with a new paint job. But preferably I'd rather have had a new Romulan ship model, but with the already-reduced VFX budget this film had, that would have been an impossibility.

Nebusj wrote: View Post
The movie explained it, though: the Barrier was a reflection of the fears and the dread of those venturing into its unknown depths, turning that back on those reckless enough to venture in. After Sybok's brainwashing of the crew, they were all at peace with who they were and what they were doing and in need of venturing through the Barrier. Even the un-washed Kirk's fears was overwhelmed by, as Sybok noted, his need to know what was past the Great Barrier. Thanks to Sybok's intervention the Great Barrier could not hurt the Enterprise.
Which, again, makes me wonder why Sybok just didn't go there himself. If he would have been able to penetrate the barrier with no problems, then why did he need the Enterprise?

The Klingons, of course, in hot pursuit were confident and with the evidence of the Enterprise being just fine had no fears of the Great Barrier, and were thus also unharmed.
I honestly don't think that was the reason why the Klingons were able to breach the barrier (or at least the film definitely didn't intimate this as the reason). They breached the barrier because the plot required them to, simple as that.
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Old September 4 2014, 05:43 AM   #32
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Or conversely, that the Romulans could have used a KTinga with a new paint job. But preferably I'd rather have had a new Romulan ship model, but with the already-reduced VFX budget this film had, that would have been an impossibility.
A shame, too... we never got to see a movie-era Romulan ship. (Unless you ascribe to the aforementioned background of the BoP, but that doesn't really fit in well with the way the ST universe has unfolded since then.)

Which, again, makes me wonder why Sybok just didn't go there himself. If he would have been able to penetrate the barrier with no problems, then why did he need the Enterprise?
I have no idea how he got to Nimbus III originally, but he didn't seem to have a ship of his own available at the time. Assuming he doesn't have enough credits to buy his own ship outright, he was probably unable to rent or charter one, because no rental company's insurance would cover Mysterious Energy Barriers at the Centre of the Galaxy.
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Old September 4 2014, 08:37 AM   #33
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Getting hold of an interstellar transport doesn't appear complicated in Star Trek, especially not in the movie era. Say, in ST3, it appeared that shady characters aplenty would serve this particular market, except in the rare case of Genesis (and even Mr Ears there would no doubt have done the gig after Sybok's trademark persuasion!).

But remember that Sybok was going to Sha Ka Ree to meet God in God's terms. And God had told him to get there in a starship! Sure, Sybok could have visited Him on his own just to say hello and yes, I'm at it, Your chariot will soon be here, too - but that would be a bit irreverent, now wouldn't it? Sybok was under a spell, that much is obvious. And while the spell would not completely cloud his judgement, or be obvious to fellow Vulcans, it would certainly affect how he pursued his lifelong goal...

...Which he may well have chosen in the first place only because God spoke to him. With the established interstellar range of Vulcan-to-powerful-alien telepathic contact, it's a wonder they don't go mad more often.

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Old September 4 2014, 05:05 PM   #34
Ithekro
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

I would assume speed. Or implied power to get though the barrier (from the inside).
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Old September 5 2014, 06:45 AM   #35
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

[/QUOTE]The Romulans knew how shitty this movie was and wisely stayed out of it, even going so far as to dub over their ambassador's lines.[/QUOTE]

This was so funny I just sprayed coffee over my key board!

Look, at least their ambassador was smoking hot. Even with the "we can't afford the make up costs to give her ears " head piece.

Did they really dub her lines? I guess I never noticed.

This whole movie just defies logic. I can't imagine what shatner was trying to do.
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Old September 5 2014, 08:02 AM   #36
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Consul #1: "A renegade Vulcan has taken our ambassador hostage!"

Consul #2: "The one who walks around with the phallus on the back of her head like nothing's going on?"

Consul #1: "Yep."

Consul #2: "Let him keep her."
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Old September 6 2014, 05:26 AM   #37
Dukhat
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Timo wrote: View Post
Getting hold of an interstellar transport doesn't appear complicated in Star Trek, especially not in the movie era. Say, in ST3, it appeared that shady characters aplenty would serve this particular market, except in the rare case of Genesis (and even Mr Ears there would no doubt have done the gig after Sybok's trademark persuasion!).

But remember that Sybok was going to Sha Ka Ree to meet God in God's terms. And God had told him to get there in a starship! Sure, Sybok could have visited Him on his own just to say hello and yes, I'm at it, Your chariot will soon be here, too - but that would be a bit irreverent, now wouldn't it? Sybok was under a spell, that much is obvious. And while the spell would not completely cloud his judgement, or be obvious to fellow Vulcans, it would certainly affect how he pursued his lifelong goal...

...Which he may well have chosen in the first place only because God spoke to him. With the established interstellar range of Vulcan-to-powerful-alien telepathic contact, it's a wonder they don't go mad more often.
But "God" didn't tell Sybok to kidnap three ambassadors in order to lure a Starfleet vessel to some backwater planet, and oh, by the way my new disciple, that ship just happens to have your half-brother as the XO.

I have a hard time believing that Sybok, while under some sort of influence from "God," yes, was so clouded in his judgment that he couldn't have come up with a better idea to acquire a starship.
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Old September 8 2014, 04:24 AM   #38
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

I'm sure he tried Cal Worthington's Starships....
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Old September 8 2014, 09:06 AM   #39
Timo
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

But "God" didn't tell Sybok to kidnap three ambassadors in order to lure a Starfleet vessel to some backwater planet, and oh, by the way my new disciple, that ship just happens to have your half-brother as the XO.
How can you tell? It's not as if Sybok would appear surprised at any stage of his supposed plan. Divine knowledge or at least divine approval of plans might well be part of it all.

I have a hard time believing that Sybok, while under some sort of influence from "God," yes, was so clouded in his judgment that he couldn't have come up with a better idea to acquire a starship.
What was wrong with this one? He got a starship without the baggage of a full crew, he got it within easy sailing of his destination, and he got it without the rest of Starfleet giving chase. That's way better than most scenarios...

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Old September 8 2014, 08:22 PM   #40
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Timo wrote: View Post
How can you tell? It's not as if Sybok would appear surprised at any stage of his supposed plan. Divine knowledge or at least divine approval of plans might well be part of it all.
Because Sybok never said, "God told me to kidnap you in order to steal your ship," which he would have said if that was the case, as most religious zealots usually use "God's word" as their justification for their actions.

What was wrong with this one? He got a starship without the baggage of a full crew, he got it within easy sailing of his destination, and he got it without the rest of Starfleet giving chase. That's way better than most scenarios...
Because at any point in his plan, he could easily have been killed because he put himself and others in danger. Plus there were weapons involved. If he'd just hired a ship to go to ShaKaRee (or just stolen one himself without anyone else being involved) there would have been no danger to himself or others. The fact that he still got away with his plan by no means equates that his plan was a good one.
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Old September 9 2014, 01:11 AM   #41
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

You know, Sybok's plan almost seemed to require a starship with a "less than skeleton crew" and missing several important functions, including transporters. He didn't just need a Federation starship sent to Nimbus III, he specifically needed the Enterprise. I wonder if God played with Admiral Bob's mind too.
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Old September 10 2014, 01:19 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Because at any point in his plan, he could easily have been killed because he put himself and others in danger. Plus there were weapons involved.
But weapons being involved would be desirable: Sybok would want an armed battlewagon. That is, God would want one. Flying in with SS Aurora would do God little good, after all.

Why should personal danger to Sybok be an undesirable element, either? From his own point of view, he's on a quest. The only reason to water down the thrill of that quest would be if he signed up for Vulcan stoicism, but we know Sybok doesn't do that.

God wanted a starship, and starships are Starfleet property. It doesn't sound too much to assume that God got exactly what He wanted, and did so by telling Sybok to do His bidding. And getting a starship requires confronting and besting Starfleet.

Not that this would absolutely require a pre-weakened ship such as the Enterprise: an operation in which the envoys are rescued and Sybok jailed would also be a success, as the envoys would then do Sybok's Trojan-horse bidding to let the Vulcan take over the fully crewed and operational vessel. But staging the play at Nimbus III would seem to guarantee immunity from further Starfleet interference, so it's a pretty smart element in the plan.

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Old September 10 2014, 08:43 PM   #43
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

^That makes absolutely no sense in the context of the film. "God" just needs a spacecraft to escape ShaKaRee. His use of the term "starship" is just semantics; he didn't need a Starfleet vessel any more than he needed a Bird of Prey, a Romulan warbird, or a Terellian plague vessel. He just needed an escape vehicle. So Sybok could have used a decommissioned Vulcan freighter that he himself piloted as far as that was concerned, and saved himself a lot of trouble by not causing an intergalactic incident in which he could have been killed in its implementation.

The only drawback to this is Kirk's statement about "no ship has ever penetrated the barrier," but even that is nonsense, as both the Enterprise and a BoP do so without any ill effects. If the film stated a very specific reason why "God" needed a Constitution class Federation vessel, than fine. But it really didn't, did it?
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Old September 10 2014, 08:50 PM   #44
Timo
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

A starship (first a Starfleet one, then a Klingon one) got through the barrier. God needs that. There's no indication a lesser vessel would have sufficed, and a Starfleet hostage-rescue ship is what Sybok can access with the plot we witness. He cannot access comparable Klingon ships, nor would there be an obvious alternate way to access a Starfleet ship. So where's the problem? We really don't need the details spelled out, not when we don't have any obvious contradictions to sort out.

Death, intergalactic incident... Sybok is going to meet God. Why would he care?

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Old September 11 2014, 01:17 AM   #45
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Re: TFF: Where were the Romulans?

Timo wrote: View Post
A starship (first a Starfleet one, then a Klingon one) got through the barrier. God needs that.
God needs what? The Starfleet ship or the BoP?

There's no indication a lesser vessel would have sufficed...
And there's no indication that a lesser vessel would not have sufficed. "God" could have escaped aboard the BoP just as easily as the Enterprise.

...and a Starfleet hostage-rescue ship is what Sybok can access with the plot we witness. He cannot access comparable Klingon ships, nor would there be an obvious alternate way to access a Starfleet ship. So where's the problem?
The problem? Let's analyze this "plot." God contacts Sybok; asks him for a starship. God obviously wasn't being specific as to what starship, since Sybok wouldn't have known what ship would be sent to Nimbus III. And on that subject, Sybok seems to think that the best way to acquire said ship would be to stage a kidnapping of three third-rate ambassadors on some backwater planet that nobody cares about, in hopes that they'll be rescued. He has no idea if any of the three governments will even care enough to send a rescue party, even though he seems to steadfastly think they will. For all he knew, nobody would come to rescue them, and then where would Sybok be?

But, thanks to the "plot," we have Starfleet sending a ship that really should have been sent back to drydock for a refit; a ship that could have malfunctioned and not even made it to Nimbus III in time. Then where would Sybok be?

Alternately, the Romulans or the Klingons could have sent a ship (other than Klaa's, that is, who seemed to just want to go to Nimbus III for his own reasons), and knowing either Empire, they probably would have just killed everyone. Then where would Sybok be?

There are several, more logical ways for Sybok to have attained a ship. As someone earlier said, he could have asked that weird-eared, backwards-talking alien at the bar from STIII to charter a flight there. But instead he embroiled himself in a half-baked hostage situation that could have had disastrous consequences for him if it had gone wrong.

So based on all of the above, the fact that Sybok's plan succeeded at all is nothing short of amazing, considering the circumstances. But that's only because the "plot" required it to happen that way.
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