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Old August 26 2014, 07:20 PM   #61
Last Redshirt
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Because it wasn't an Enterprise story, it was a TNG story about a decade too late. The main premise wasn't about Archer trying to write a speech and help his friend and the decommissioning of the Enterprise, it's about Riker playing on the holodeck trying to figure out what to do about The Pegasus. The main cast of Enterprise were secondary to Riker and Troi, and that shouldn't have happened in any episode, much less the finale.

The best part in the episode was, really, the ending, with the voiceovers of Kirk, Picard, and Archer. That was a proper wrapup.
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Old August 26 2014, 08:06 PM   #62
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Why do I have a problem with this episode?

Because it isn't connected in anyway to the arc Enterprise had at the time. "Terra Prime" is one of my favorite ENT episodes, and quite honestly would be a better finale, in my opinion. The fact that the death of Trip and T'Pol's child or the human racism that occurred does not even factor in to the finale. Um, that was some pretty important character stuff there. Do you mind not leaving it out of the picture, please?

Secondly, how they killed off Trip is a big mistake. Some may complain about revealing that a character is going to die somehow cheapens the death, and I will agree that is a tight rope to walk. However, the fact that the finale involves a main character getting killed by criminals because he ran in to a situation that should have been handled by security or even the MACOs, which Riker dresses as in the episode.

Finally, as many have mentioned, it forces TNG in there for no reason. Ok, a small reason, to acknowledge Trek's TV history. The problem, as has been hashed out, is that the Pegasus episode handled the Riker dilemma with more decorum than TATV did because it could focus on Riker's relationship with Picard. Here, Riker apparently needs his hand held to be convinced to tell the truth. Again, it's another character inconsistency.

As for ideas to make it better. SF Debris, in his review of this episode, made it very simple. ADMIRAL Riker is preparing a speech to induct the 200th member in to the Federation and is looking through historical records for inspiration. He doesn't participate, because his presence reminds us that this is on the holodeck. The episode plays out even as Riker observes and thinks, but he isn't the major mover here.

I would build off of the idea of human racism, with the criminals being mercenaries hired by someone to try and destroy the conference. Enterprise, being in orbit for Archer's speech, try to stop them. Trip and T'Pol resolve their feelings with each other, and Archer works to save the coalition, even as he prepares his speech.

Finally, if you kill Trip, or anyone, it really should count for something.

Finally, and this is based on SF Debris idea, is to have the one instance that Riker has to interact with the crew, be a brief moment, where one of the ENT crew, probably Archer, get a one on one interaction, that give Riker his inspiration.

And, you fade out from Archer's speech, not "Computer, end program."
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Old August 26 2014, 08:10 PM   #63
Kobayshi Maru
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I think it is somehow cribbing from the Voyager's living witness story. The idea is basically the same, enterprise/Voyager is long gone and other people reminisce about it.
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Old August 26 2014, 09:19 PM   #64
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I wonder what would have happened if there was a hint that the holographic record was somehow not entirely accurate. Like maybe Troi mentioning that she had a Charles Tucker as a patient recently. A guy with slightly pointed ears. Like say, Charles Tucker V.
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Old August 27 2014, 02:52 AM   #65
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I hate this episode with the heat of a thousand super-novas, and my reasons are many and varied.

First and foremost, they killed Trip. In a sloppy and stupid and totally unnecessary manner. In the previous episode, we saw Trip MacGyver his way out of a dire situation with a $#@!! paper clip, and the stakes were much, much higher. Now all he can figure to do is blow himself up? Stupid, stupid, stupid. It smacks of laziness and bad writing. The character is twisted into a pretzel and all internal continuity ignored in order to get him to the point where he sacrifices himself unnecessarily.

Braga says he wanted to kill Seven of Nine in a Voyager episode and wasn't allowed to, so because he was able to kill Trip, he did. Very mature reason. And he didn't even do it well. As viewers, there was no sense of sacrifice or sadness; just rage. And most people don't accept the episode as canon. (I've been told by those who know that CBS has quietly disavowed that episode as well; don't expect an official statement but that's the reality). That's the ultimate failure.

Secondly, no one gives a damn. No one mourns him, there's no memorial; instead his friends spend their time squabbling about their seats and Archer worries about his speech and T'Pol worries about Archer's dress sense and Phlox can't stop smiling.

Trip started out as a frat boy and grew into a loyal, competent member of the crew and proved himself to be a formidable captain in his own right. He deserved better than that sorry send-off.

The writing in this episode is absolutely abysmal. Continuity is ignored; characterization is haphazard, to be kind. It was established that Chef was temperamental and nowhere were we shown or told he was a father confessor figure for the crew. Suddenly Riker is having heart-to-hearts with everyone. And the crew has been replaced by pod people. Hoshi telling him Trip didn't go to college -- that he learned about warp engines by working on boats in Florida. Yeah, right -- lots of Warp 5 engines on boats in the Florida Keys. Shran -- engaging in sleazy business? Shran, to whom honour and service were everything?

Sloppy plot gaps -- as others noted, where the heck were the MACOs? Where was the intruders alert? Security? On holiday? Oh, right. If they were on the ball, then there would be no reason for Trip to die.

These kind of errors would be unforgivable by a novice -- but by experienced writers like Bermaga? Totally unacceptable.

I came away with the feeling (other than total disgust) that far from being a "valentine to the fans" that this episode was Bermaga's way of giving the finger to both the fans and the powers that be; an example of a temper tantrum transferred to celluloid. Nothing I've heard from the cast, crew or Bermaga themselves has made me change my mind.
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Old August 27 2014, 03:43 AM   #66
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

^While I pretty much agree with what you said, there are a few 'misconceptions" here, if you don't mind me pointing them out.

Pippin wrote: View Post
(I've been told by those who know that CBS has quietly disavowed that episode as well; don't expect an official statement but that's the reality).
I don't quite buy this. CBS cares nothing about the episode or fans' feelings towards it. If they did, then they could have ordered the episode to be deleted from the DVDs and Blurays, but they didn't.

I came away with the feeling (other than total disgust) that far from being a "valentine to the fans" that this episode was Bermaga's way of giving the finger to both the fans and the powers that be; an example of a temper tantrum transferred to celluloid. Nothing I've heard from the cast, crew or Bermaga themselves has made me change my mind.
Sorry, but that's not true at all. Both Berman and Braga have stated for the record that they truly thought they were making an episode that the fans would love, and that it would be a fitting sendoff for all of Trek. Yes, they both later admitted that the ep was a huge mistake, but at the time they thought they were catering to the fans. I know that the finished product makes that very hard to believe, but it's the truth.
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Old August 27 2014, 08:49 AM   #67
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Pippin wrote: View Post
I hate this episode with the heat of a thousand super-novas
We reach brother!
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Old August 27 2014, 09:33 AM   #68
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Ithekro wrote: View Post
I wonder what would have happened if there was a hint that the holographic record was somehow not entirely accurate. Like maybe Troi mentioning that she had a Charles Tucker as a patient recently. A guy with slightly pointed ears. Like say, Charles Tucker V.
I don't know how that works. Is his blood one quarter copper based and three quarters iron based?
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Old August 27 2014, 10:29 AM   #69
Ithekro
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Well they had a crewman that was a quarter Romulan, so it does work.
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Old August 27 2014, 12:48 PM   #70
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Kobayshi Maru wrote: View Post
Ithekro wrote: View Post
I wonder what would have happened if there was a hint that the holographic record was somehow not entirely accurate. Like maybe Troi mentioning that she had a Charles Tucker as a patient recently. A guy with slightly pointed ears. Like say, Charles Tucker V.
I don't know how that works. Is his blood one quarter copper based and three quarters iron based?
Spock was half human. Presumably if he produced a child with a human, the child would be 1/4 Vulcan.
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Old August 28 2014, 02:31 PM   #71
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

As someone who liked Riker and Troi and didn't particularly like Trip (or ENT overall), I didn't like the episode but didn't think it was terrible. Archer and T'Pol had reasonable gravitas in response to Trip's death.
I agree that not showing the speech felt dumb and particularly disrespectful to the series' fans, robbing the episode and series of the climax if not the point because Riker had had enough.

I do have to defend against the complaint that there were no promotions in seven years, promotions actually seem pretty rare through Trek.
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Old August 28 2014, 05:22 PM   #72
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

suarezguy wrote: View Post
As someone who liked Riker and Troi and didn't particularly like Trip (or ENT overall), I didn't like the episode but didn't think it was terrible. Archer and T'Pol had reasonable gravitas in response to Trip's death.
I agree that not showing the speech felt dumb and particularly disrespectful to the series' fans, robbing the episode and series of the climax if not the point because Riker had had enough.

I do have to defend against the complaint that there were no promotions in seven years, promotions actually seem pretty rare through Trek.
Promotions that were made a big deal over were pretty rare but there were several promotions.

Kirk to Admiral in TMP. Spock and Scotty to Captain in TWOK. Worf in Generations and DS9. Wesley in TNG (I can't remember the episode). Sisko to Captain.

Sure, its all the main characters, but the idea of Rike at least being a higher rank shouldn't be that foreign.
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Old August 29 2014, 12:06 AM   #73
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

fireproof78 wrote: View Post

Promotions that were made a big deal over were pretty rare but there were several promotions.

Kirk to Admiral in TMP. Spock and Scotty to Captain in TWOK. Worf in Generations and DS9. Wesley in TNG (I can't remember the episode). Sisko to Captain.

Sure, its all the main characters, but the idea of Rike at least being a higher rank shouldn't be that foreign.
Chekov was also promoted fom Ensign to Lieutenant in TMP, and even way back in TOS, Spock was a Lieutenant-Commander in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", but by "The Menagerie" he is a full Commander.

Plus we saw Riker and Troi discussing promotions of junior officers in "Lower Decks", and apparently some of the officers, like Sito were only out of the Academy for a short time (remember Sito showed up in "The First Duty" as part of Wesley's class).
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Old September 8 2014, 04:33 AM   #74
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I think that the episode by itself isn't actually that bad (minus Trip's pointless death) but it shouldn't have been the show's finale. As a standalone episode earlier on in the series, it would have been fine (again, minus Trip's death).
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Old September 8 2014, 07:32 AM   #75
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

It was one of the few episodes I had seen and actually own. It was on one of the fan favorite DVD sets and I couldn't believe it. I remember watching the episode and thinking, wow, they kill off the only good character. I was shocked at the fan favorite title.

Riker and Troi's appearance made me go back and watch the Pegasus episode and it didn't fit in. I finally decided it was a slap in the face to viewers and B&B's escape. "Didn't like Enterprise? Okay, it was just a holodeck program." At least I always wondered that: was it just that episode, or the entire series Riker was playing with.
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