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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old August 22 2014, 01:00 PM   #16
Smellmet
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

[QUOTE=
I honestly don't remember any damage being done to the Scimitar during the battle itself, only when it was rammed. Even with the cloak partially or fully dropped, it still seemed like the Scimitar was just absorbing the impact, though I might need a higher resolution screen.[/QUOTE]

It always just looked like shield impacts to me
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Old August 22 2014, 02:09 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Using people as lookouts should not be superior to using cameras: there is no plausible reason for the cameras not to work.

The exotic nebula (and it is exotic, as it exists only a short hop away from a fair-sized star - perhaps it is a recent, very dense burp of gases from said star, or something being sucked into that star?) can prevent signals from one ship to reaching another, or wreak havoc with shields projected outside the ship, but it is difficult to see how the nebula could have any effect on what goes on inside the starship. And the "cameras" would be inside, as would be their "wiring" (insert technobabble for what replaces these technologies and terms in the 23rd century). If the interior of the ship is that vulnerable to the nebula effects, why isn't the crew dying? Most technologies are more robust than human bodies!

However, cameras are short-range devices, both because one would need extreme magnification to see things in even a "short-range" space fight, and because light only moves so fast... The ships might therefore rely on some sort of a FTL signal to get the light to hurry up on its way to the camera lens (or whatever), and it's this technology that would fail inside the nebula. This need not even assume that the fight actually takes place at longer ranges than shown: it might be that the heroes believe the fight would involve those long ranges, and therefore keep their cameras switched to FTL, resulting in the fuzzy imagery.

In ST6 was Enterprise alive only due to the fact that Federation torpedoes were being fired at her by Chang? The Enterprise-A took a hell of a beating to be sure, but if they had been Klingon torpedoes (the sort of type that one-shot-killed Grissom) would Enterprise have lasted until Excelsior arrived?
Actually, the green Klingon torps often seen being fired from the small BoPs appear to be really weak: they barely dent totally unshielded ships, such as in ST3 and ST:GEN. These might even be deliberate "soft" weapons to allow these vessels, the Trek analogy to WWII submarines, to capture enemy shipping intact...

Chang might be at a disadvantage for a different reason. He needed Starfleet torpedoes or very good replicas in order to perform the strike against Gorkon, but the torps he needed had to be "set on stun", so that only the gravity systems would be knocked out and the target ship could then host the assassination party and supposedly also recover to blast Kirk to pieces. Where does a conspiring Klingon get Starfleet torpedoes? From a fellow conspirator in the ranks of Starfleet, probably. And Admiral Cartwright would have made damn sure to only sell him torpedoes that could do no more than "stun". Hence the prolonged fight at the end of the movie: the bad guy only had an assassin's Derringer, and had to dodge and weave and posture to stay alive while chipping away at an opponent packing a Kalashnikov.

In Generations ~80 years later one Federation torpedo was able to take out a Bird of Prey, but only after using technobabble to disable their shields.
It should be remembered that the BoP was the tool of an El-Aurian who was quite a tech wizard. Soran knew how to blow up stars, how to turn the VISOR into a spying device without the handicaps witnessed in "The Mind's Eye", and how to camouflage a surface installation (and a secret room aboard a Federation installation!) against the best sensors in Starfleet. It would make sense for him to also boost the shields of the BoP. And indeed our Klingon duo appears genuinely surprised that the shields are holding against the E-D phasers, as if this were a novel and untested addition to their own vessel.

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Old August 22 2014, 03:10 PM   #18
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

^ Don't call the Mutara Nebula a burp.
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Old August 22 2014, 04:01 PM   #19
Cyke101
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
^ Don't call the Mutara Nebula a burp.
Well, it's a burp that can drop shields and render a starship blind. That's some powerful gas!
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Old August 22 2014, 04:16 PM   #20
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Reflection nebulae are not a burp (or rare) and depend of the presence of nearby stars for their visibility.
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Old August 22 2014, 06:18 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

...But the Mutara Nebula is obviously not a reflection nebula. (Say, it's got plenty of internal illumination!)

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Old August 22 2014, 07:43 PM   #22
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Timo wrote: View Post
...But the Mutara Nebula is obviously not a reflection nebula. (Say, it's got plenty of internal illumination!)

Timo Saloniemi
Agree but the one in Nemesis might be (with the science fiction proviso that we can see it close up.) Mutara could be a newly formed planetary nebula (based on Regula's proximity to Earth) would still need to be SF-ish to have the demonstrated properties.
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Old August 23 2014, 01:04 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

I guess the scifi setting actually helps us out - many a dense mini-nebula could be the remnant of an intense space battle, say...

Or even a literal burp, not of a star but of an actual lifeform with a digestive system.

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Old August 23 2014, 07:36 AM   #24
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

If the Star Trek VI era photon torpedoes are anything like the Archer era photonic torpedoes, than they can easily scale the damage on those things. Anywhere from being able to shave off a layer of paint on a building to vaporizing the city block the building is in. Or something like that.

And since the Federation torpedoes seem to be based on Klingon torpedoes, having the Klingons equipped with Federation torpedoes shouldn't be all that much of an issues aside from some signiature reading. Chang should have been able to have his crew set those things up to do just a much damage as he wanted, but also could aim to exactly were they needed to disable the gravity on the battlecruiser, which on assumes was by disabling the power systems, since the ship drifts out of control with its lights flickering until they get power restored (and all the bodies and blood hit the floor). Followed by Change bringing the battlecruiser around and arming torpedoes to attack Enterprise.

The Bird of Prey in Star Trek III took out a Merchantmen with disruptors, and vaporized USS Grisson with a lucky torpedo hit to the engines. Must have hit the antimatter storage tanks or something to get an instant warp core breach-like effect of that scale. Its one shot at USS Enterprise didn't do a lot fo damage, but was enough to disable to automation center on the unshielded cruiser. Normally that sort of damage wouldn't mean much of anything as the crew would then manually aim the phaser banks and load the torpedo tubes, and could pass along orders to engineering for speed and anything. Because Enterprise was entirely wired into the computer to relay commands from the bridge, cutting that would kill the ship (at least until the five guys on the ship could get to the manuel stations to use them, and that would taekke too much time
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Old August 23 2014, 11:14 AM   #25
Timo
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

And since the Federation torpedoes seem to be based on Klingon torpedoes, having the Klingons equipped with Federation torpedoes shouldn't be all that much of an issues aside from some signiature reading.
I doubt the two are even of the same caliber, let alone compatible in other ways. And since the hits are the only thing that can be offered as proof of Federation guilt (the exact trajectory has to be faked), the warhead signature better be utterly accurate in order to be believable.

If Chang were to get hold of a standard Starfleet warhead, he could no doubt set the yield as desired. But Cartwright wouldn't want to give him those, and we have no indication the two sides would actually be capable of reproducing each other's equipment.

Chang should have been able to have his crew set those things up to do just a much damage as he wanted, but also could aim to exactly were they needed to disable the gravity on the battlecruiser, which on assumes was by disabling the power systems, since the ship drifts out of control with its lights flickering until they get power restored (and all the bodies and blood hit the floor).
Such precision sounds a bit suspicious, really. Being able to cleanly knock out the enemy's power is one thing the warships would both be designed to achieve, and be designed to be immune to; i.e. it would be one of the hardest things to do to an enemy vessel.

To achieve the precision effect, Chang could have ordered one of his men to pull a key circuit breaker after the hits...

Must have hit the antimatter storage tanks or something to get an instant warp core breach-like effect of that scale.
Agreed. Heck, the location at the bottom of the science vessel's ventral pod even corresponds to the "Hero Worship" graphic for the location of the main powerplant...

In the fight against the Enterprise, as well as in ST5, those green torpedoes cause "electric shorting" and collapsing of key systems without doing significant physical damage. Perhaps the Klingon gunner's misfortune was to short out some innocent but important part of the antimatter containment system?

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Old August 23 2014, 09:31 PM   #26
Ithekro
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Considering how close Kronos One and Enterprise were, and the escort nature of the positioning, being able to setup for a precision shot would probably be easy. Especially of Chang parked his battlecruiser is such a way to give Enterprise an easy shot at the engineering sections.

Considering that these are both older designs, it might be expected that two experianced commanders would know the weaknesses of the Constitution and D7 respectively...with the shields down of course.
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Old August 24 2014, 02:40 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

It is a bit weird that "Kirk" could fire at the underbelly of the Klingon vessel; all the establishing shots showed the two ships at more or less the same horizontal level.

I guess Starfleet would choose, and Klingons would understand and expect, a formation where the escorting ship is pointing her main armament at the ship under escort, i.e. the Enterprise trailing on Kronos One. So lining up a shot in general wouldn't take that much effort. But the ventral hits are unusual nevertheless, as elsewhere it appears to be Starfleet doctrine to "hold moral high ground" with a high-positioned ship, and Klingon doctrine to "skulk in the depths for a cowardly hit" with a low-positioned one. Except of course when the Klingons want to loom ominously.

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Old August 26 2014, 03:36 PM   #28
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

That's one thing I always thought was weird, why was the Enterprise behind the Klingon? I thought they would be on each other's flank. Isn't following the visiting dignitary kind of like escorting someone with a gun at their back? If the Klingon was behind or to the side, this could not have happened. Was this Chang and Valkris's meddling to have this formation?
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Old August 26 2014, 09:27 PM   #29
Ithekro
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Well Chang seems to have parked the ship there relative to Enterprise. They did swoop over Enterprise to that position it seems.
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Old August 28 2014, 02:16 PM   #30
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Timo,

Could the hit that Kronos I took from the BoP be considered analogous to USS South Dakota at the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal? In this battle, the South Dakota suffered electrical problems from bad maintenance, losing power as a result. She was then pummelled by the Japanese and illuminated by searchlights. The Japanese were target fixated on her so much that they did not notice USS Washington advancing to within 9000 yards, which is practically pointblank shooting for a 16" naval rifle. Washington then proceeded to rapidly sink the Japanese. South Dakota suffered many hits, but nothing critical that endangered the ship. Thus she was a soft-kill, taken out of the fight early due to other errors, like Kronos 1.

Star Trek vessels of all types seem to be be vulnerable to the early "soft kill". If they are engaged early and surprised without shielding up, they suffer. Take TWOK as an example; Khan knew where to hit Enterprise and quickly took her down. Enterprise in turn used trickery to lower Reliants shields, then she quickly did the same. The two ships disengaged to fight again later, both at reduced effectiveness.

Kirk had to take the calculated risk of the nebula to negate the Reliant's strengths, namely her restored shields. In the Mutara Nebula fight his ship was at the advantage being fully manned, and in a close in slugfest Enterprise was a heavy cruiser vs Reliant being a destroyer. Either ship could have still won, but the ship design intangibles favor the bigger vessel in that kind of fight.
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