RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,610
Posts: 5,425,746
Members: 24,807
Currently online: 571
Newest member: Dixonn

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 14 2014, 03:52 PM   #76
Ithekro
Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

I would assume Chang is on Kronos One. If not during he start of the attack, than he beamed back onboard before contacting Enterprise, as he is supposedly on the bridge of Kronos One before bringing the ship about to target Enterprise. (The guy Gorkon sent to find Chang didn't get very far, he was shot by the assassins. Wasn't that the guy that got his arm shot off)

Chang would not miss the chance to fight Kirk. One warrior to another.

The other source for Chang's personality is the PC game "Klingon Academy". If that is anything to go by, Chang was on Kronos One the entire time. He might be betraying Gorkon (who he doesn't see as fit to command the Empire due to his stance on the Federation), but Chang is depicted as an honorable Klingon warrior. One who would not back away from a battle...especially not against his hated enemies, the Federation...and especially James T. Kirk.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14 2014, 05:59 PM   #77
CoveTom
Rear Admiral
 
Location: CoveTom
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

Marsden wrote: View Post
Not arguing, but I always assumed that Chang was on the Bird o Prey all along and only made it seem like he was on the big ship. Chang doesn't strike me as the sacrificing type. But maybe that would have revealed it? He may have been ready to beam over to the Bird if the attack started. I still think it would have been a real Remember the Maine type incident for the Empire.
Remember that when the attack starts, Gorkon tells them to find Chang. He's not with Gorkon at the time. I take that to mean that Chang was actually on the Bird of Prey planning, as others have suggested, to see Gorkon's ship destroyed. But when things went awry, he beamed back over to the flagship and just made it look like he had been there all along.
CoveTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14 2014, 06:56 PM   #78
Armored Saint
Fleet Captain
 
Armored Saint's Avatar
 
Location: Quebec City
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
If it had been Chekov as traitor maybe they could've blamed it partly on brain damage from TWOK
Chekov didn't have uncured brain damage from TWOK. Kirk wouldn't have give him the tactical station later in the movie. Bones wouldn't have let Kirk doing that.

Timo wrote: View Post
Simon van Gelder screamed a lot when Spock forcibly probed him in the first-ever mind meld. How many of us yell(ed) "rape!" for the agony of a wrinkly old man?
That's why I don't buy the mind-rape thing. Most of mind-meld performed by Spock weren't made on consenting targets. So, considering this mind-meld like a rape would imply to consider a lot of other melds like that.
But Valeris wasn't like the others, she was a Vulcan, she was well aware of what a mind-meld is. WRONG! The victim doesn't have to be conscious or to know what is thing called sex to be raped. That would also implied Bones was raped by Mirror Spock.

But Spock melded with van Gelder, the Horta and the amnesic Kirk to help them. WRONG! Raping someone for his own-good doesn't work. Don't forget Spock also used his powers to manipulate his jailers.

Recently, I read the novel Cast no Shadow. It's good stuff, but when the betazoid psychotherapist was lecturing Spock on this infamous meld I was...PUH-LEASE LOOK WHO'S TALKING. If a mind-meld is a rape, Betazoids are a bunch of voyeuristic perverts.
Armored Saint is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 14 2014, 07:10 PM   #79
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

Well, if Lwaxana is any indication...
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14 2014, 08:14 PM   #80
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

I'm coming to think that it's clear the conspirators did not wish to see Kronos One destroyed.

Had that outcome satisfied one or both sides in the conspiracy, then the BoP could have destroyed the battle cruiser outright, with torpedoes that appeared to have been fired by the Enterprise. Gorkon would be dead, and Starfleet would be implicated by the evidence recorded by the surviving Enterprise. If the conspirators weren't confident the Enterprise would bring forth evidence that implicates Starfleet, then all the more reason to think they wouldn't let the only other legitimate witness ship be destroyed.

We could argue that the use of a "Starfleet" boarding party would add to the evidence condemning the UFP, after which "the Enterprise" could additionally destroy the battle cruiser. But again the villains would need to be counting on the Feds to implicate themselves, not to mention on the evidence from the battle cruiser internal security cameras somehow making it to the Enterprise databanks before the loss of the battle cruiser. So the extra complication of the boarding party would add nothing tangible to the plan.

Yet if the idea were to let the Klingon ship assuredly survive, with data showing both the boarding and the torpedo launches, then the extra complication makes sense. Especially since any evidence on the torpedo launches would need to be faked, since actual visuals would reveal that the torps came from nowhere.

If the survival of the battle cruiser always was a key element in the plan, then Chang wouldn't need to evacuate any farther than absolutely necessary to keep him away from the line of fire of the two assassins.

Whether Kirk then lives or dies is fairly irrelevant. The outrage of him being hauled away for trial might be enough to get the war going. If not, any rescue plan, orchestrated by Cartwright (perhaps to fail?), would achieve that. It's only after the rescue plan is shot down and Azetbuhr inexplicably refuses to go to war over the cooling corpse of his father that the second assassination becomes necessary.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14 2014, 10:32 PM   #81
Ithekro
Captain
 
Ithekro's Avatar
 
Location: Republic of California
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

CoveTom wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
Not arguing, but I always assumed that Chang was on the Bird o Prey all along and only made it seem like he was on the big ship. Chang doesn't strike me as the sacrificing type. But maybe that would have revealed it? He may have been ready to beam over to the Bird if the attack started. I still think it would have been a real Remember the Maine type incident for the Empire.
Remember that when the attack starts, Gorkon tells them to find Chang. He's not with Gorkon at the time. I take that to mean that Chang was actually on the Bird of Prey planning, as others have suggested, to see Gorkon's ship destroyed. But when things went awry, he beamed back over to the flagship and just made it look like he had been there all along.

Also remember that his aid didn't get very far, running into the Starfleet crewmen with phaser first. Chang was likely on the bridge of Kronos One. Gorkon was elsewhere on the ship.
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15 2014, 12:28 AM   #82
urbandefault
Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

It just occurred to me ... Valeris' scream and the look on her face was not pain. It was horror, when Spock mentally called her "Queen Bitch Whore."
__________________
"Hello pants." - Gary Busey
urbandefault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15 2014, 03:16 PM   #83
Shat Happens
Captain
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

mos6507 wrote: View Post
There's nothing sexual about a forced mind-meld. I really think "rape" is the wrong term.
I dont like it either, but the term stuck problably because it means "forced". The word itself is used in some contexts not-strictly sexual. OTOH, Writer/director Nicholas Meyer said the scene was "erotic" in the dvd commentary.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2014, 12:26 AM   #84
starshipfan
Ensign
 
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

I'm a bit late into this thread, but I'm glad the traitor wasn't Saavik. I absolutely loved her character in TWOK, but in TSFS and TVH, they seem to have excised her Romulan half, which is one thing that presented so many possibilities.

In any case, I agree that Valeris was a bit obvious,but it worked for me. I also, like others here, feel that Chang was on the BoP during the initial attack, then beamed back to Kronos One when a slugfest didn't happen. (And yes, it's been established that beaming can occur within a cloak.) I feel that Chang planned to wait until one ship or the other had a definite advantage - if Kronos One, he'd beam over once it wasn't likely to be destroyed and finish off the Enterprise, or if the Enterprise was winning, he'd wait until Kronoe One was destroyed, then finish off the Enterprise with the Bop. He could then salvage any records logs and claim to have been picked up from a life pod as a primary witness of the battle (altering the logs as needed to support his case.

Lastly, is it just me, or does Spock seem to attract pretty female protoeges?
starshipfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2014, 02:49 AM   #85
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

mos6507 wrote: View Post
There's nothing sexual about a forced mind-meld. I really think "rape" is the wrong term.
There's little about rape that's sexual. It's an act of violence.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2014, 05:42 PM   #86
CoveTom
Rear Admiral
 
Location: CoveTom
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
There's nothing sexual about a forced mind-meld. I really think "rape" is the wrong term.
There's little about rape that's sexual. It's an act of violence.
The motivation may not be sexual. But the act is definitely sexual. That's what separates rape from other forms of violence. If I punch you in the face, we don't call that a rape simply because it's an act of violence. Similarly, I don't think the term rightly applies to a forced mind meld either.
CoveTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 26 2014, 10:44 AM   #87
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

...However, "sexual" is often in the eye of the beholder - and at a minimum, it appears to suffice that the two parties involved are of different genders, quite regardless of what they are actually doing. If a man punches a woman in the face, it's violent but "potentially sexual", and the society on the average loves to cry foul. If a woman does it to a man, it's violent but "potentially sexual", and the society on the average gets a hard-on.

Really, "rape" today serves much the same semantic role as "honor killing", in glorifying a gruesome act with the aura of something mysterious and desirable. Actual juridic or physical definitions are pretty much secondary to that function.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2014, 09:10 AM   #88
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

Simon van Gelder explained the source of his screaming during his mindmeld with Spock. Kirk's screaming while mindmelded with Spock as Kirock was also explained by Spock. The only mindmeld scream that remains a mystery is Valeris. Her scream is just there. It is implied that Spock has done something to make her scream like that, but Spock doesn't volunteer an explaination - which the shocked crew certainly would've deserved. Kirk certainly didn't order that Valeris be made to scream, if necessary.

And even when she does scream, Spock's own reaction to it is unclear, because before he and Valeris were in sinc with their saying things at the same time. Is Spock's sort of upset look reflecting some of what Valeris is feeling? Again, it is not clear and mildly confusing because it's completely unnecessary and uncalled for, outside of a "dramatic moment," because the scene, otherwise, isn't very strong or interesting. In fact, why it didn't happen in Sick Bay, where they just were when all of this came out in the first place is another example of Meyer's sloppiness and disinterest in the reveal of this "Who Done It?" Poorly written and directed, however you want to look at it.
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27 2014, 12:59 PM   #89
EnriqueH
Commander
 
EnriqueH's Avatar
 
Location: Miami
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

On screen, it was Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley who made the best chemistry.

Behind the scenes, it was Nimoy, Meyer and Bennett.

Take out any of the three, and the result is not as strong.
__________________
A crew of a thousand 10 miles tall...
EnriqueH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2 2014, 04:14 AM   #90
CoveTom
Rear Admiral
 
Location: CoveTom
Re: Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

EnriqueH wrote: View Post
On screen, it was Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley who made the best chemistry.

Behind the scenes, it was Nimoy, Meyer and Bennett.

Take out any of the three, and the result is not as strong.
Amen. Losing Harve Bennett really hurt TUC.
CoveTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.