The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

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I have purchased this now, and it really is a lovely piece of music. And so appropriate to a show discussing all about Sisko - I can almost imagine him noodling about on the piano in his father's restaurant, and this tune comes to him, like an inspiration from on high...

Anyway, I enjoyed the recent episode very much. On the two sides of the discussion I definitely come down on the non-religious side, but it is by watching and thinking about this show (and writing my fan-fics, which occasionally played with the same concepts) that I came to a somewhat deeper appreciation if some aspects of the spiritual experience (when I'm not being infuriated and appalled by the fundie whackjobs, that is).

I think it demonstrates one of the great things about DS9 as a show that you can even spend that whole time talking about the journey a single character takes. There aren't many shows where the characters develop and expand so much that it would generate such a discussion. But on DS9, almost every character does.

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DS9 does make you think about everything from all sides of the issue and leave you to make your own conclusion all while doing it with respect; now that is class

 

I too enjoyed this most recent episode, and have to say that I hadn't ever recognized the similarities between Sisko's story arc and my own personal religious beliefs before listening to the discussion.

I can't wait to see what topic you guys two tackle next.

 

We are doing Dr. Bashir!

 

Nice. Thanks for posting and letting me know not only about The Orb podcast but Trek FM in general. I will definitely be visiting and doing my best to add activity to the site. And I will make The Orb one of my regular podcast downloads

I just finished listening to the first podcast of The Orb and found that you, the hosts, were terrific in breaking down some very key point regarding why DS9 stood out. But I want to gve speicial mention to Matthew for his mention of the sets. This is something I've stressed over the years I've even started a post or two on the subject on these very boards. The DS9 set age well. When the series was coming to an end I was confident the show would not date as TNG already had started to because the sets themselves help make DS9 look timeless. That Cardassian architecture is not only beautiful to look at, it remains alien to our human eyes decades later. Obviously Matthew agrees. It was nce simply hearing someone express that opinion because I felt it was an element always missing in the posiive discussion/articles/writeups regaring DS9.

 

Thanks! I really do love the look of the show and think that it stands up the best of all of the series. I am very glad that you are enjoying the show!

 

Finished up the #2 and #3 podcasts of the Orb. Once more Christopher and Matthew did a bang up job. Here are some of my thoughts:

As far as I’m concerned DS9’s characters are the most fully formed and the ones that went through the greatest development. Of course some characters suffered more than others. Matt and Chris were spot on about Jake being underutilized and often forgotten. I recall an interview Ira S. Behr did sometime in 1999 or 2000 in which he admitted the he and the writers “dropped the ball” regarding Jake. That’s an understatement. And it still continues to amaze me considering TV never seems to lose its enthusiasm for peeking into the lives of teenaged males on the cusp of manhood. Yet TPTB of DS9 let Jake fall to the wayside during the final two seasons of the show.

Often when characters are barely used the reaction of viewers is typically that those characters weren’t that interesting and therefore that explained the lack of time and storylines devoted to them. My theory is that there are no such things as uninteresting characters but instead disinterested writers. Writers are human too and at times pick favorites or have moments in which they lack inspiration for one reason of another for specific characters. I believe Jake suffered from these issues and thus I don’t buy into the argument that he wasn’t as fascinating character as, say, Nog whose goal was to join Starfleet.

Jake was not simply the son of the commander of DS9, he was also the son of the Emissary. Considering the number of Bajorans working on the station and the little fact that the nearest planet to DS9 was Bajor itself, Jake’s situation could have been an interesting one to dwell into. How did Bajorans feel about Jake? Was there a title for him considering who his father was, was there a place in their religion for him, a role he was supposed to play. It could have been something as simple as Jake getting huge discounts from Bajoran vendors on the Promenade. Or perhaps he would have been treated like a dignitary, despite his opposition, whenever he visited Bajor. Maybe Jake could have accepted the idea of his father being the Emissary even before Benjamin Sisko himself did. As a result Jake could have been pulled into political disputes and upheavals on Bajor with members on either side of the debate attempting to sway him to their side in a way that Sisko never could be considering his role as a neutral Starfleet commander. Wouldn’t these political operatives think having the Son of Sisko on their side be an advantage to swaying the undecided; and wouldn’t they perhaps also feel there was a chance that Jake could persuade his father to take their side too? This is why I always wanted to see Jake interact with Bajorans especially those his own age. Having a steady Bajoran girlfriend could have been interesting considering all the possibilities. Mardah was too mature for Jake I suppose but TPTB at least had the right idea by giving Jake a Bajoran girlfriend in the first place.

And considering Jake was a writer what about writing holo-novels through which he can sell through Quark’s help and business contacts? There could have been an intriguing juxtaposition of Nog leaving towards Sisko’s example of a career path while Jake leaning more towards the commerce dominated world of Quark. If not that route then perhaps the writers could have persisted with their representation of Jake as a reporter covering a war. They could have sent Jake off the station and had him visit Federation colonies to interview citizens caught in the middle of the war going on with the Dominion as well as place him on actual Federation ships full of weary Starfleet personnel heading into the next battle. This could have done wonders in showing Jake’s development as an adult. And in Jake’s mind just maybe such assignments would have made him feel he was making up for literally running away from such an assignment during “Nor the Battle to the Strong.


As I kept watching DS9 I knew it was a pipe dream of something like this happening but I still felt the show had one more chance to use Jake in an interesting way during its final season. With the addition of Ezri who was not that far from Jake’s age I thought it was a no-brainer to pair the two. At the very least it would have added an interesting element and perhaps some tension between Sisko and the old man. It would have been priceless for Sisko to grapples that his one-time mentor (who was male) was now dating his son. And considering that Dax and Jake had known each other previously through different bodies for the Dax symbiont, how would that have affected whatever feelings Ezri and Jake developed for one another?

I spent a lot of time on Jake because of all the cast who were listed in the opening credits we got to see the least of him. But I must mention that Quark could have benefitted from a few more serious episodes in which he dealt with the dark side of the business he was in such as in the episode "Business As Usual". Maybe that would have been too B5-like. And I think Kira was well on her way as being the most developed and complex character ever on Trek, when TPTB seemed to put on the brakes with her sometime during season four. Perhaps they wanted to devote more time to other characters after Kira was so dominant during the first two years, but for whatever the reason Kira’s development didn’t pick up again until season seven.

Lastly I couldn’t agree more regarding Martok. In fact as far as I’m concerned Martok is the best Klingon character ever and always made any scene better. My one quibble however is that the Martok-Sisko interaction was far more interesting than Martok’s moments with Worf. Avery Brooks and J.G. Hertzler had excellent chemistry.

Edited to add that indeed the Cardassians are far more interesting than the Klingons.

 

For the Sisko/Emissary podcast you guys get points just for mentioning “Destiny” of the third season. Not enough people remember to list that episode as the one in which Sisko took that first step by reevaluating the idea of Bajoran prophecies and gave thought once more to the idea of being considered an Emissary of the Prophets. The latter idea gets thrust upon him again thanks to a scene in his Defiant quarters with Kira. The serious conversation between them leads to Kira admitting that although she did not want to believe it at first she does indeed believe he is the Emissary. It is a very important moment because not only does it somewhat change the dynamic in Sisko and Kira’s relationship, it also explained to us why Kira had being so rude and belligerent to as well as distrustful of Sisko early in the show’s run if she had believed that he was indeed an important religious figure of her people. By the way it is a fantastic and understated scene in one of the show’s most underappreciated episodes form the early years.


It was as if the writers for the episode realized there was this fantastic back story involving Sisko that was introduced in the very first ep of DS9 but had been virtually ignored for one and half seasons. Whoever came up with the idea to ignore the Bajoran religion storylines backlash that DS9 faced its first two years deserves tremendous credit because it gave Sisko a characteristic that separated him from Trek captains that came before and after, one that would be prominent in is storylines up to the final episode of the show. And not only did it alter the interactions to follow between Kira and Sisko, it also caused TPTB to start having Bajorans in general treat Sisko differently. During season two Sisko needed a legendary Bajoran soldier Li Nalas to help him push an agenda and to get the Bajoran people to hear him. A season after “Destiny” Sisko wouldn’t need anyone else to galvanize the Bajoran people because he could do it himself.


With that being said I think I have to disagree with any talk about TPTB having planned all of this. It is clear that DS9, unlike JMS at Babylon 5 was mostly making things up on the fly or plotting out things ahead of time at the beginning of each season. There isn’t any long arc planning from season one to season seven. How could there be considering all the changes in writers and producers from season one to season three? As I mentioned above the whole Emissary angle seemed to have been forgotten for the longest time before it was revisited. Not that I’m complaining. DS9 proves you can produce a great show with have continuity without having 75% of the arcs plotted out ahead of time.


The Emissary storyline became a plotline regularly explored starting with “Destiny” with at least one episode devoted to it each season. Each storyline seemed to raise the stakes and was improving upon what came before up until “The Reckoning”. The first 2/3 of that episode was pure brilliance and looked to be on its way as being the greatest Emissary-themed episode of them all. But it collapsed under the weight of a silly battle between Glowing Blue Eyes and Glowing Red Eyes. While there were other Emissary moments that followed that still reached greatness, I’m not so sure that overall the Emissary storyline completely recovered from that last 1/3 of “The Reckoning”. I liked the idea of the Pah-wraiths and even the Fire Caves but all the red eye stuff was unnecessary. And Sisko’s destiny ending up being jumping off a cliff with a sacred book? Um perhaps TPTB of DS9 should have followed JMS’ long arc approach when it came to that .In the beginning of the seventh season when Sisko was stabbed by a member of some Pah-wraiths cult, I thought would be terrific if Sisko could not “find rest on Bajor” because his presence would have led to some sort of religious war. I’m biased but that would have been a better idea than the Emissary storyline conclusion that we got. Just one man’s opinion.


Sisko was the one captain of the Star Trek franchise that put his personal life, his family life, ahead of Starfleet. Could you ever imagine Kirk or Picard marrying? No, but Sisko did it twice. He had a family that was more important than his career. Maybe that made him more opened to the idea of a spiritual awakening. Food for thought.

 

Just started listening to episode one, and the piano solo of the theme song is absolutely beautiful. Is there a place to get that or does that go against paramount copyright rules. That might have been the best version of the theme I've ever heard, but then I think I love anything dealing with just the Piano.

Great first episode, and I do have a topic you guys can talk about. You guys said that the first two seasons have it's struggles, but I would love it if you devoted an entire episode on Season 2. I've always considered Season 2 one of the series' best seasons and we're talking about misjudged conceptions in the other thread, I think Season 2 qualifies as mis-judged (And that was the point in the article I agreed with the most). It was a transition year between the Bajoran stuff to the introduction of the Dominion, and I really liked how that season developed, from a political, to adventure, and all in between. You can really cover a lot of ground talking about what I think is DS9's mis-understood season and one of the most underappreciated seasons in all of Star Trek.

 

Meanwhile, earlier in this thread:

 

In fairness to me, I saw the link after I originally posted.

 

NKemp3 I really like what you said about Jake. I do think that the writers just dropped the ball on him and that he could have been a more interesting character if they had invested in him.

tomalak301 That is a good topic! We just might get to that after we work our way through the main characters.

The newest episode about Odo is up now. Thank you all for listening and sending us your feed back! Trek.fm does now have forum where you can let us know what you are thinking as well!

 

After I wrote about that topic, I listened to your episode where you guys say you won't talk about specific seasons so maybe I didn't understand what you meant. I was thinking Season 2 along the lines of a period of transition for the series. Maybe not on an individual level, but if you look at the entire season as a whole, it goes from Bajoran politics, to the changing landscape of the Alpha Quadrent with the Maquis situation, to really going for broke by introducing the dominion. A lot of people don't label season 2 as one of their favorite seasons, but when you look at it as a whole, it might be DS9's most important season and probably the season to start if you're introducing new viewers. It's my third favorite season of the show because not only that, but the quality of episodes is just really good.

Really loved your conversation about Odo in today's podcast. I like the topic of him being a lone ranger type character because it is true. He has to follow the rules, but your point about him believing that Justice never changes was a very good one.

Since you're doing major characters, I'm looking forward to your Dax conversation. Are you going to lump in Ezri with Jadzia or keep them separate for now. The only reason I bring this up is while I liked Jadzia, the more I watch the series, the more I think Jadzia was the weakest character in terms of how she was written. It would have been nice if the writers did give Jadzia a sense of direction other than being Worf's wife.

 

As the show grows, I am sure will will cover the seasons, we aren't going to focus much on single episodes, but there is a lot to cover with DS9.

I believe that we will do Dax seperately. I believe they both deserve their own show.

 

Just listened to the Odo show this morning. Great stuff! Odo was my favourite character from the start of the show, and while that lessened as the show went on - not because of anything he did wrong but just because other characters became equally awesome - he's still a fascinating character and worthy of even more discussion than you had time for in this show.

You discussed Odo being grumpy and defensive at the start of the show. I think one of the reasons for that is his upbringing - while he was nominally brought up in a melding of Cardassian and Bajoran culture, he was never for a second allowed to forget that he wasn't one of them. The things he says in "The Forsaken" make me think of an abused child - he was tested, prodded, used as simple entertainment almost like a circus animal, but never respected as an individual. That would lead anybody to distrust and general grumpiness, I think. But as you say, it's the relationships that he slowly allows to develop with the other DS9 main characters - sometimes even against his own intentions - that slowly drag him out of that until he's actually quite warm and comforting by the end.

Two episodes I'm surprised you didn't mention though - maybe you just didn't have time - are "Crossfire" and "Chimera."

The former, even though it's a comparatively small and inconsequential episode, is one of my favourites because it just breaks my heart. I think almost all of us can relate to what Odo goes through in that episode - the unrequited love, unable to bring yourself to declare you love a person in case you're rejected and lose everything, and in the meantime tortured by watching that person have relationships with others. I think that might be the most broken up emotionally we ever see Odo.

And "Chimera" is an amazing episode that manages to combine the deepest exploration yet of Odo's nature as a changeling with a love story that is so much more powerful than almost any other in Star Trek. There's some great discussion of the episode in TheGodBen's review thread, starting on this page.

Keep up the good work!

 

lvsxy808 Thanks for mentioning those we missed. The thing about all these characters is that they are so deep. We could really do more that one episode on each of them, especially if we started talking about all the different episodes of the show that they feature in or have character growth. This is really the reason we are doing The Orb because of the richness of DS9. I'm so glad you're listening!

 

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Did one the other day. Looking forward to the next episode.

By the way, because of your podcast I've been marathoning DS9 this week and started a DS9 rewatch. Started Emissary last Saturday night and watched Battle Lines last night. You're podcast is going to give me new ideas and thoughts as I go through this. Hopefully I can actually finish the whole series. I tend to really get into a mood and then things come up and it's a long time before I return to it and end up just starting over.

 

I'm so glad you're rewatching. I have been as well and I am in the middle of season 7 now!