Digdug the Movie? Seriously Jennifer would have made a fantastic Ms. Pac-Man. Gobble gobble. Whacka-whacka.
What kind of logic is that? I posted here a lot initially vis a vis the various arguments but then I got the point where I thought everyone should agree to disagree, and then I said the thread was definitely getting stale.
I'd call that kind of logic "awesome." You've obviously enjoyed the thread, as you keep posting in it. If you really wanted it to die, you'd leave it alone. I'm picturing something gross and porny. Speaking of gross and porny, I wonder if breaking up the Kes/Neelix ship (the H.M.S. Ewww) had anything to do with Lien leaving. I think they got rid of the wrong half of the couple, but at least that pair was done. Sure, they had Kes break up with Neelix in Warlord, but it seemed rushed, like the writers wanted to tie up a loose end.
That had nothing to do with it. Kes was the first runner up for a shitcanning, and because Wang couldn't live up to his obligations to fuck off, Jennifer did. Kes was completely safe up till the break between season three and and four, and really there's a question in my mind if Kes and Neelix broke up, or the writers behind the scenes just cocked it up imaging that the two of them had parted ways in Warlord, or a story was supposed to be produced about these two crazy kids, which didn't quite cut the mustard, in so that their split was tabled, even though episodes made later predicated on the this nonexistant event about their parting were made... There's something Latin about this? Post hoc ergo proctor hoc, which means "After this, because of this". In the same vein, according to Berman, Janeway found the Borg baby's parents and gave it back to them between episodes, and the audience was just supposed to assume that this happened because other wise it would still be on ht ship or the crew would be sad. Such horribly swiss cheese continuity. But if Jennifer had stayed, Kes and Tom would have been making babies and fighting Krenim. Which is why Kes and Neelix were nixxed.
that break-up was absurd. I didn't even realize it had happened at the time, because Kes was possessed. Were the writers so lazy that they didn't want to even give Voyager's biggest relationship up until that time a proper end?
Gardener, yeah, I know that Kim was supposed to leave the show but got a last minute stay of execution. I'm just wondering if TPTB felt a little better about axing Kes because they'd also end the Kes/Neelix weirdness. I guess that's something we can never know. I'd forgotten that Warlord was season 3, not 4. So I guess Kes would have broken up with Neelix regardless. But like you said, it wasn't 100% clear that they had, indeed, broken up. Maybe the writers wanted to leave room for them to reconcile, or maybe they were just sloppy. Really, really sloppy. Was that ship loved, hated, or ignored while the show was on the air? Sonak, I know what you mean. I couldn't figure out when they broke up until I rewatched the series. The last scene they had together in Fury got me misty-eyed, and sort of (but not really) made up for the lack of a proper ending to their relationship.
Kes and Neelix in Fury? Whaaaa... ? What I remember is Old Kes making a deal to feed Voyager's crew to the Vidiians in exchange for safe passage out of there for two people... So I'm thinking, o, that's sweet, she still loves Neelix. They're going to run away together, while everyone else gets drawn and quartered for parts. True love. Ahhhh. But... Old Kes runs away with her Younger self, leaving Neelix to be butchered with the rest of the crew. She's just not into hedgehogs anymore. So, I had all these Romeo and Juliet, doomed starcrossed lovers scenarios in my head, that I medically needed to play out to satisfy my expectations and urges for the episode to touch the sides... Kes on Kes? I'd buy that for a dollar.
Kes/Kes slashfic? You know that's gotta be on the interwebs somewhere. I can't look it up right now, but I was remembering that scene with Kes and Neelix on the transporter pad at the very end. He gives her a packet of snacks and they say goodbye. It's just a quick couple of lines. But, yeah, slaughtering crew =/= romance
Ah, Fury. Written out, come back.Sometimes less is better for a character. I don't think I'd appreciate Garak so much if he was in every episode. So maybe TPTB did Lien a favour.
If a crew of Vidiians captured young Kes, and Neelix rescued her, but killed all Vidiians, it would still be dead romantic... You have to remember, that old Kes thought that the crew of Voyager were the baddies out to get her, and their annihilation was just a mild case of self defense. Slash fiction pshaw, I'm talking about how I understood Fury as I viewed it canonically. However, if I'd wanted to do-over canon, here's the scene that was missing from Fury. Just rescuing her youngerself wasn't enough because, as her master plan stood, Old Kes wasn't rescuing all of her junior edition, only most of her. I find it odd that Kes would consent to leave her lung behind inside Neelix to be extracted by the Vidiians. (There was a song from Wham! years ago, the lyrics were, "Last Christmas I gave you my lung, the very next day you gave it away, gave it away, so next Christmas I'm giving it to some one special... ") That's ridiculous. She should have taken it with her. How dare her enemy kitchenrat breath with her lung as he continues to betray her more and harder with every breath! The worst betrayal!
My memory's a little hazy on this but I'm pretty sure that they did write/film a break up scene and it was cut from the episode for some reason.
Now I have an image in my head of young Kes and Neelix making out amidst piles of mutant Vidiian corpses, just after he rescues her. As for Kes taking the lung back, as long as Neelix stops breathing, however we get there is cool with me.
Jennifer rejected the first script they sent her for Fury. She made some notes and sent it back. She's got a writers credit on IMDB. One does wonder how she changed the script?
^^ The nice people in charge were actually planning to kill of the character at the end of the episode as a nice "gift" to the Kes fans. Jennifer Lien had objections to that and made them change that. That's why she's credited as writer at IMDB.
Considering how Kes left the show, I doubt they broke up because they intending to ditch the character. matter of fact, had they gone the other way, and made their relationship deeper, they could've milked more drama out of Neelix' loss. Definitely a distinct possibility that they broke them up, in a attempt to open up storyline possibilities for her, and when that still didn't work, they decided to write Kes out to make room for Seven. Glad to know everyone else was confused about their break up. I remember an episode where it was obvious her and Tom had feelings/attractions for each other, and wondering, "What the heck, what'd I miss, isn't she with Neelix"?
The break-up with Neelix was probably a way to open up story possibilities but she wasn't dumped because those story possibilities didn't work but because they couldn't afford having 10 main characters when Seven arrived and after planning to dump Kim, they changed their minds because of that silly poll among the staff in that magazine and decided to dump Kes instead. In fact, there were a lot of hints that Kes was becoming a more important character in season 3 and that this development was supposed to continue. Note also that they had to re-write "Year Of Hell" because Kes was no longer on the show wen they started filming that.
Ah, yea, my memories on Voyager are pretty fuzzy, only watched it on the original airing and my viewing became very spotty starting in S4.
Warlord happened, were the warlord broke up with Neelix so that he could have lesbian sex with his girlfriend, and try out some heterosexual sex too with that wimpy kid. So we saw a break up, it's just that it wasn't real. A month or two later there's Darkling where Kes says she found this cool guy who flies shuttles and she wants to run away away with him... Imagine your daughter running away with a biker covered in tattoos, such a cliche, but the Doctor kills him, or beats him up because his program is glitching, and she stays. THAT's is when I had to ask "what the fuck is going on here?"