TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    That's an...excellent idea, and I'm ashamed I've never idly considered the possibility myself. That would indeed have been a good way to keep the Sisko-Prophets relationship grounded in what the pilot established, while also giving it a twist. From the Prophets' viewpoint it would make sense. The encounter with Sisko is their initial point of contact with our space-time, which provokes their interest in Bajor and the universe outside over the planet's history; Jennifer's death is thus essential to the stability of Bajor's past. if Sisko discovered that not only had they killed Jennifer to ensure he'd be their emissary, but that he unwittingly caused her death by mourning her so greatly after she died (headache ahoy...) and using the incident to jump-start Prophet-Humanoid mutual understanding...

    That would have been great drama.
     
  2. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Another one of DS9's masterpieces and my favourite episode of the show, I also reckon it has the hardest plot to follow (though after a couple of viewings it all makes sense) which is an oddity because usually trek episodes make you think about the higher moral concepts and not the actual plot itself.

    What I love is how the episode jacks you around with who's doing what, who's plotting what and what is the desired outcome to all this intrigue. Finally the pay-off (and an episode like this needed one after all the complicated shenanigans) NOT only makes sense but is very VERY satisfying and I think portrays Starfleet Command in a very different light. The common perception (in the Trek universe) is that Starfleet is all about exploring the unknown and protecting civilians through honourable means.

    But really that's an illusion -- something which this episode and others (Paradise Lost) have hinted at, but this episode suggests this far more strongly -- someone has to do the dirty, disreputable and sometimes immoral work to ensure the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians and other races out there don't bury the Federation six feet under. Section 31 is the dark side of the Federation to ensure the Federation remains this peaceful utopia. The fact Section 31 was shrouded in such secrecy suggests to me a lot of blue pill (the Matrix reference to sticking ones head in the sand, ignorance is bliss, etc...) thinking amongst Starfleet's top brass, High Council and so forth- something which first the two Borg incursions and then the Dominion war made them completely re-evaluate such blue sky thinking (in which I think Ross was like that until the Dominion war came in).

    But man this episode is tight; it all rested on that last conversation between Ross and Bashir and that scene nailed it! If anything that was the climax, whilst Sloan popping up to visit Bashir in his quarters as merely the icing in the cake.

    It's a pity this is the last episode of Star Trek to really evaluate how the Federation works and to do so in an unbiased way. VOY never came close to touching this; it didn't have the balls to do so, as for ENT... I've only seen the first two seasons and part of season 3 so I wouldn't know. But Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges marked the last of the thinking man's Star Trek; you know episodes which really made you think about this made-up universe.
     
  3. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Well, there was no Federation in Enterprise to explore the dark side of; but they definitely did some poking around in humanity's dark side in seasons 3 and 4. With the crew themselves in season 3, and then with Earth in season 4. It wasn't to the same extent as DS9 did it, but there certainly was a strong theme of it in the last two seasons.
     
  4. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It would have been nice if the Pah-wraith/Prophet conflict was somehow caused by Sisko's discovery of the wormhole as well. The Prophets chose to kill Jennifer so Sisko could become their Emissary and help Bajor recover, the Pah-wraiths attempt to prevent the intervention because they fear corporeal life, and thus end up being banished. It's a rough idea that I wouldn't be skilled enough to work out entirely, but it contains the sort of moral complexity and deep questions that the confrontation in the Fire Caves sorely lacked.


    'Til Death Do Us Part (***)

    This title is all wrong. Apparently people that get married in the 24th century use the phrase "until death separates us". They presumably updated the phrase after that period in the 23rd century when standard 5-year marriage contracts were all the rage, similar to how they replaced love instructors with holograms. But let's get back to the actual canon, shall we?

    Sisko and Kasidy are getting married. Except now they aren't. And now they are again. Godsdamnit, is this a part of the marriage ritual in the 24th century, or something? :klingon: First Keiko did it, then Jadzia, now Sisko. I have it on good authority (i.e. I made it up) that the opening sequence of Nemesis was supposed to be Diana calling off her wedding to Riker because he grew that beard back, but they cut it to add more shots of dune-buggies. Back on topic, Sisko decides not to marry Kasidy because beings that can see the future warned him that it would be a painful mistake, but after realising that the ring he bought was non-refundable he decides it's best to endure the horrible suffering. Thus proving that De Beers has distorted all rational perceptions of value in our society.

    Actually, the real reason why Sisko called off the wedding is because Kai Winn insisted on performing the ceremony. While on the station, Winn receives a vision from those sneaky, sneaky Pah-wraiths who tell her to do whatever Dukat says. I actually quite like this decision to bring Winn and Dukat together like a villainous Voltron. It may get quite cheesy in later episodes, but in this episode I feel it works quite effectively to up the stakes to bring two of the show's main antagonists together. Speaking of bringing together antagonists...

    Does it? The only time the Breen actually played a proper role on DS9 is when they were shown to operate a low-yield slave mine on Tatooine. They've never been portrayed as a major galactic force, so having them join the war is about as shocking as announcing that the Talarians have joined in. That being said, the Breen siding with the Dominion does make some sense considering that there was a captured Breen in the Dominion internment camp Bashir and co were kept in, so it's more than possible that a Changeling somehow wormed its way into the Breen government until it finally had enough power to join them with the Dominion. Not that that's ever stated in the show, nor is any proper motivation provided for the Breen, they're just walking puppets that make a funny sound. They work as a means to move the plot in an interesting direction, but they're hardly worth analysing.
     
  5. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

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    Oops, I've missed a bit here. :o

    Inter Arma is a brilliant episode, It's just a shame that the Section 31 arc that followed eventually fizzled in Extreme Measures. It's good to see Bashir put through the wringer in a similar way Sisko was in In The Pale Moonlight, and to watch how differently he handles things. He's grown so much from the first season, and it was a pleasure to watch.

    Penumbra is a solid episode, but it's more or less just a lot of putting things into motion, which has played out more interestingly on other series. And of course, my favourite character has her own arc about getting it on with Worf. Why oh why? I understand them needing to confront their feelings, but just not in this icky way.

    'Til Death Do Us Part is a better one. I really loved the Breen when I was younger, but purely on a superficial level. Not enough to get it on with them or anything mind. As a result I was a lot more wrapped up in their shenanigans then than I am these days. They're only there to advance the coming plot about Damar and the Cardassians.

    Sisko and Kasidy unfortunately fall into the trappings of cliche Wedding stories, but I grew to like them so much as a couple of the course of the series that it didn't bother me so much.
     
  6. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Your reviews get funnier as we go :)

    I like your Prophets-Jennifer Sisko idea. That might have been too dark even for DS9. If DS9 was a cable series airing today, it would totally work.

    I agree with your assessment of Penumbra. There was definite weirdness between Worf and Ezri that had to be confronted, and I can even see Worf feeling like they should be together because he's so literal and duty bound. I just thought they dragged it out too long during the arc. I think her speech to him about the Klingon Empire later does a much better job of showing the progression of their relationship than Jungle Sex did.

    I have never been a fan of the whole Sarah Sisko Prophet thing. Thought it was stupid back in 1998-99 and I still do. Sisko is already tied to Bajor by the events of the last 7 years, they didn't need to add the mom factor. They could have still played the "you can't get married, you're the Emissary" card without that. Major Fail, IMO.

    I also had the same reaction regarding the Breen. "Um, ok, if you say so"
     
  7. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunawayBride

    I don't think there has been any TV show to actually have a wedding where the bride and/or groom doesn't try to back out at the last minute.
     
  8. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Strange Bedfellows (****)

    This episode is an interesting one as both the a and b plots of the episode are centred on secondary characters. The main plot, and certainly the most enjoyable, is Damar's realisation that Cardassia means nothing to the Dominion, the Cardassian people are just pawns being sacrificed for the good of the Founders. With the inclusion of the Breen into the Dominion, Damar can no longer ignore that he has become a collaborator in a regime that is exploiting his people and he finally decides to take action. The way that this has been bubbling away under the surface for the last few seasons is quite impressive, and it makes the way events spill over in this episode extremely satisfying. First, there's the scene where Worf snaps Weyoun-7's neck and Damar can't help but laugh, then there's the scene where Damar remembers Worf snapping Weyoun-7's neck and can't help but laugh, then there's the scene where Weyoun-8 fears that Dead Fish will snap his neck and Damar can't help but laugh. Funny stuff.

    On the station, Kai Winn is screwing Dukat, which raises all sorts of interesting questions. The most pressing being whether Dukat had a full-body conversion into a Bajoran, because that would be dedication right there. This plot works quite well for the most part. Once Winn realises she has been duped by the Pah-wraiths there's a refreshing sequence where she actually comes across quite sympathetic, which is a side of her character I quite like seeing. But it all comes crashing down in a wonderful scene with Kira where Winn reveals that she just isn't willing to make the sacrifices that sometimes go along with being a moral person. As a result, Winn refuses to resign her position as Kai, thus officially marking her as more evil than Pope Rapenazinger. Sadly, the final scene is completely devoid of all the nuance the episode had shown in her character, but I suppose it's not completely out of place with what we saw of Winn in the early seasons.

    I guess there's a c plot centring on Ezri and Worf in their cell and the various arguments they have. By the end of the episode, they realise that the clothed jungle sex they enjoyed was a mistake made by two fallible people in a complicated emotional situation. Boy, I wish they had figured that out before they boinked.
     
  9. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

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    Ha. Definitely. :p

    The rest of the episode is very good. Damar's resentment of the Dominion has been brewing for a long time by now, so the payoff is very satisfying. Who knew killing Weyoun could be so hilarious?

    And then there's the match-up of Kai Winn and Dukat, which is a pretty inspired choice. It's a tiny bit disgusting, but very compelling. Winn realises she's working with the Pah-Wraiths, and is so very close to doing the right thing for a change.

    But of course, she remembers she's the same old power-hungry know-it-all bitch she's been all these years. :D
     
  10. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Reading these reviews reminds me that I haven't actually watched the whole final arc in a while. There are a couple of episodes I tend to rewatch quite a bit, but some of these "build-up" episodes I tend to neglect.

    On the Breen joining the war... yeah, it's a twist for the sake of a twist. The idea is to raise the stakes, or to give the audience the feeling that the stakes are being raised. But I don't think that was really needed since the stakes are already pretty high, and the Breen really don't add anything of substance.

    It actually makes sense that the Dominion would be looking for allies in the quadrant, a bit like Sisko trying to bring the Romulans into the war on the Federation's side, so the idea is good. It's just the choice of the Breen that seems a little odd.
     
  11. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    Well, the only Alpha Quadrant power that isn't in the war yet that has appeared a lot are the Ferengi. And I don't think them joining would be all that impressive. So it had to be a species close to aliens of the week in any case.

    This is one of the times, I think, when DS9's unplanned nature hurt it. If the writers had planned the Breen joining from the beginning, they would've done the occasional episode with them
     
  12. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's certainly true. There's no real obvious choice. I guess that's why we ended up with the Breen. It's too bad, in a way, that there wasn't an equivalent to the Romulans available.


    Edit: Regarding Sisko's mother being a Prophet, I've always been ok with the choice because it brings the non-linearity of the Prophets' existence into tighter focus than really anything did previously. I think that's especially important leading into the finale. Also, it gives the Prophets a tighter connection with Sisko, so his interaction with them can have an emotional element.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
  13. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Changing Face of Evil (****½)

    This episode is a strange yet satisfying mixture of ordinary life and shocking moments. The first shocking moment occurs during the first scene when we learn that the Breen have attacked Starfleet HQ, but that's small fry compared to what is to come. Interestingly, following the initial shock of this event, life quickly returns to normal on DS9, which is a completely different reaction to the one we saw following the bombing on Earth back in season 4. But that's to be expected, all of these characters have been living under threat for so long that they've grown used to it and prefer to play with toys to distract themselves.

    This complacency is a perfect set-up for the second half of the episode. In order to make the Breen threat truly come home for our characters they have to suffer a loss, and that loss is the Defiant. Before this episode aired on TV, I had it spoiled by a friend that the Defiant was going to be destroyed, and while watching the episode I guessed from the extended prelude to the battle that this was the event I had heard about. Bizarrely, I semi-forgot about this event in the years that followed, and when I watched the episode on DVD many years later I was shocked by the event in a way I hadn't been when I originally saw it. It's a brutally swift sequence, the Defiant goes from kicking ass to being a wreck in about 90 seconds. It's genuinely quite sad too, especially Sisko looking forlornly back on his bridge one last time. It was a gutsy move to kill off the show's hero ship, even though it does get replaced by a near-identical ship with an ugly carpet.

    In the midst of the despair over the destruction of the Defiant, we get one of the show's best "fuck yeah" moments. Damar chooses not to waste much time planning his rebellion and gives an impassioned speech encouraging Cardassian resistance, and includes the franchises biggest "fuck you" by revealing he destroyed the Dominion's cloning facilities just so that there can be no more Weyouns. Over the years, a lot has been said about how great Damar's arc so and I don't want to repeat all that, but I just want to say how satisfying it is to watch. It brings a smile to my face and makes me feel that all is right with the world, even when the universe itself is hurtling rocks at us.

    The Winn/Dukat plot continues in this episode with some palace intrigue as Winn stabs an elderly religious man and uses his blood to unlock great evil. It's the weakest part of the episode, but it's still reasonably enjoyable for now. The only major problem I have with the episode is Dead Fish's decision to allow the survivors of the Allied fleet to scuttle back home, but since the alternatives were for the majority of the main cast to be killed off, or for them to be captured and detained until they all work out their romantic feelings for one another, it was probably for the best.

    Stupid French Things: 6
    Defiants Lost: 1
     
  14. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the destruction and replacement of the Defiant is an interesting moment.

    In Trek there's a history of the ship almost being a character, and I think that's certainly still true on DS9 to an extent, thought the show is built more around the station and the wormhole than the ship.

    The Defiant does really fit the show's identity, in a way, though: the tough little ship, stripped down to the essentials, not really built for exploration, but for defense, and for war.

    It's also very much established as a force to be reckoned with at this point, so its destruction does hit pretty hard.

    On the other hand, I find its immediate replacement to be appropriate: there's only so much time that can be spent caring about a warship in a conflict like this.

    Some have said that replacing it undercuts what previously happened, but I don't think it really does. The attachment the characters might have to the old Defiant is based on the experiences they shared on it, not its "uniqueness" as a machine. Also, it's just a ship. Let's not get carried away.
     
  15. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

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    The Defiant is blowed up real good, and it was a really emotional moment. The way it was almost swept under the rug by an exact replica was a bit strange though.
     
  16. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Replacing the Defiant makes sense, but they replaced the Defiant with another Defiant class ship which they then renamed Defiant and gave the ship the Defiant's exact registry number. I understand why they did all that for budgetary reasons, and at least they changed some of the colours on the bridge, but it was a little underwhelming. It would be like replacing Jadzia with Jadzia's identical twin sister who is also called Jadzia.

    When it Rains... (***½)

    ...it drizzles. Nothing in this episode can match the theatrics of the previous one, it's just contains the logical continuation of the story, as well as some plot elements being set up for the final batch of episodes.

    Damar is now the leader of the Cardassian Liberation Front, but he's not doing very well and his underling, Russot, is contemplating establishing the Liberation Front of Cardassia. To help Damar out, Sisko decides to send the two people that hate Damar most to help, Kira and Garak. But there's no time to discuss the death of Ziyal, all of these people are professionals and are dedicated to bringing down the Dominion, personal feelings be damned. It's a neat development for Kira to find herself helping the Cardassians free their homeworld with terrorist tactics she learned fighting Cardassians, but not much has come of that yet other than a few arguments.

    Meanwhile, Bashir faces the greatest evil in the galaxy: bureaucracy. After discovering that Odo is infected with space aids, Bashir decides to use his superhuman brain to discover a cure, but finds himself arguing with some low-level officers for several days. He eventually supposes that Section 31 are behind the obstructionism and that they're the ones responsible for the disease, which is a bit of a leap in logic, but he ends up being correct so I guess I have to suck it for questioning him.

    Everyone's favourite pair of eyeballs returns, as Gowron shows up to take over from Martok. It turns out that the Klingons are the only ones whose ships can be adapted to fight the Breen, and rather than be a good Salarian and hold the line, Gowron has decided to launch an attack on the Dominion while outnumbered 20 to 1. To most people, this would appear to be complete idiocy, but we're talking about Klingons here so it kinda makes sense.

    On Bajor, Dukat gets hit in the eyes with some magic smoke and goes blind, and Winn chooses to punish him by kicking him onto the street. This is a stalling tactic, plain and simple. The show doesn't need Dukat and Winn for the next few episodes so they concocted some reason to get rid of them, and it's about as entertaining as that reads.

    Form of... a little drab: 36
     
  17. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    :lol: That sums it up nicely, yes.
     
  18. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    "Glory in battle is not our way" is probably at the very top of The List of Things A Klingon Would Never Say, mind you. ;)
     
  19. Ketrick

    Ketrick Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't have a problem with it. The new Defiant was meant to be the Defiant A and if by some miracle the new Defiant is ever seen again on film, it will almost certainly be identified as the Defiant A. Perhaps this will happen if DS9 is remastered.
     
  20. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, I guess that goes back to the question of whether or not the ship should be treated as essentially a character.

    I do get the argument that some more emphasis on the new ship being different might have worked better, though.