While the Borg are certainly a bigger threat, I'd say the Dominion are a more interesting, layered and well developed enemy. Gimme Weyoun over the Borg Queen any day.
It's occured to me over the course of the first third or so of Season 3 that the Dominion seem in some ways to be a compromise between the Borg and some more ordinary race than the Founders. The Founders are individuals, but they are also part of this 'great link' business, which seems hive-mindy in practice, though not to the exclusion of individuality. And there's something a little Borgesque about the concept of the Dominion - the conquered cultures, so to speak, adapt to service the Founders, no? Food for thought. Still plenty to go and I may be the victim of some season-length red herring or something, in which case, please excuse me.
Um yeah, but not a frontal attack with guns blazing..it was not conventional, just like Geordi and Data's plan in I, Borg was not convential. There WAS NO conventional way to defeat them.
I generally agree with this, but for limited use you can't beat the Borg. On the other hand I'd rather listen to the Borg Queen over Weyoun any day myself...what a blabbermouth. RAMA
For political intrigue, I prefer the Dominion. I think they are the perfect enemy for Deep Space Nine. You start out talking about how a society recovers from oppression and then put the Federation in that situation--see how Earth and the Feds deal with this crisis and if their rhetoric at the beginning of the show matches the actions in that same moral dilemna. Having an enemy that is essentially a dark Bajor--oppressed people want to control as much of the galaxy as possible because "what you can control, can't hurt you" is just the beginning of the onion. They have no respect for humanoid life, mono-forms or solids, and to show that, they create solids to be soldiers and politicians to do their bidding while they are recluses. But the Borg represent our society as well. It represents our technology and globalization run amok. How long is it before we have interfaces in our brains, carry our computers everywhere we go? Isn't that the next step after the Google glasses? So it could be on the horizon. I see the internet in it as well. We don't group-think or move it with our minds, but we do a lot of research and communication online. I'm doing one right now. And how easy would it be to cause a disruption to that network the way they did in BOBW? How much would we lose in our society where everything is paperless? The Borg cannot be reasoned with--they are direct and to the point. You will do this or you will die. We are stronger than you. And individualism means nothing. There is no representative to sit down with and negotiate a peace. That is the reason that they are so dangerous--powerful and the collective mind cannot make a decision to respect your border. They are improving the galaxy. If some of this sounds like the rest of the world looking at American intervention, it should. I think it looks at the downside of trying to liberate people to capitalism and technology, especially with the barrel of a gun. It's at least a possible interpretation, not necessarily dead-on. I think they are overused in Trek, and because of that, it's harder to see them as a menace, especially when we can now talk to the Borg Queen. So a little of the danger is missing now. They can enter into deals with the Federation (or at least Voyager). I think they are the perfect enemy, but that is what makes it difficult to keep them around and not ruin the Star Trek universe (or the Borg) by using them too much.
We always had someone to talk for the Borg, in every appearance. In "Q Who?" we had Q and Guinan to basically explain the Borg to the audience. BOBW had Locutus. I, Borg and Descent had Hugh and Lore. So this notion of the Borg being some faceless foe just isn't there, since they ALWAYS had someone to explain them to the protagonists. If the Borg hadn't been so stupidly overpowered in the first place, it would've been easier to reuse them without "ruining" them.
Anwar, just to pick up on your defence of Voyager... I think Scorpion and the Raven arc were just as good as Q-Who? and BOBW. Certainly better episodes than I, Borg or Descent. I have no problem with a superior enemy in Species*insert number*, there is bound to be something bigger than us all. The Borg did start to get boring when they gained "enemy of the week" status, and they became much less scary, having Tuvok and co purposefully assimilated was the pinacle of this. I think "Voyager Borg" would be much better thought of if they'd have done Scorpion, made Raven into a two-parter without the Borg-Queen nonsense from Dark Frontier, and left it at that.
There were complaints about the freaking Borg corpse in "Blood Fever". I don't know why, but folks were just ready to tear into the show for the most minor things.
That and the other episode that had the escaped Borg (I'm not too familiar with Voyager, I think they were at the end of season 3) were good lead-ins to Scorpion IMO. Spooky mysteries, which is how the Borg should be. I would never "tear into the show" but there seemed to be some excellent episodes (the surviving dinosaurs, the Borg episodes I mentioned, Timeless, Living Witness, Blink Of An Eye) surrounded by alot of crap.
There were two Borg episodes prior to "Scorpion": "Blood Fever" and "Unity". Blood Fever showed us the Borg corpse at the end, indicating they were nearby. "Unity" was great because it's events are what allowed Chakotay to tap into Seven's mind and resolve the story. And then after that, we get to Scorpion which tied into both stories quite well. What happens? Folks whine endlessly over how there was a single alien species more powerful than the Borg. You just can't win. Seriously.
I seem to recall having this exact same discussion with you about a year ago, where you claimed that people hated 8472 because they could defeat the Borg. I don't think people hated 8472. I think when they were introduced, it was well done. Notwithstanding any future appearances (the San Francisco in the sky bit), their introduction merely showed us that it was possible to stand up to the Borg and win. Previous to that, we'd only seen the Borg in one-ship-at-a-time quantities (Q Who, BOBW, First Contact).
Tell that to guys like newtype_alpha, Temis the Vorta, Admiral Screed, etc. I've seen enough here to get the jist. Yes, and being able to stand up to the Borg is why the 8472 were hated. Because it made the Borg look bad that there was someone who could do that. Hell, if Q destroyed a Borg armada folks would complain that he shouldn't be able to do that.
Yes that's right, it's Admiral Screed's thread I had that discussion with you. Here's what Screed wrote from his own thread, quoting you: http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=5645485&postcount=663 People didn't hate 8472 for having the ability to beat the Borg; they hated how the writer's at Voyager made it possible for little ol' Voyager to consistently beat the Borg all by themselves, when it was previously depicted that a single Borg cube had the ability to lay waste to 40+ Federation starships. I don't get why you have anything against 8472. Frankly, if I can prove you wrong on what Screed said, I'd like to hear what Newtype and Temis' opinions are on the subject.
I had some free time, so I did the research. We've already quoted Screed, and here's what Newtype_Alpha has to say on the subject (again, in a thread with you): http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4575969&postcount=46 I only found a handful of posts by Temis that reference 8472, but none of them talk about whether or not she hates 8472 because they could defeat the Borg. We'd have to PM her and ask her (or hope she shows up here) to get her honest opinion, but based on what I've seen it seems more like she's critical of Voyager's writers for missuing the characters. The closest I could find was this one: http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2428872&postcount=9 Species 8472 were certainly capable of much more than they achieved, but Voyager's writers punted on the whole topic because they were too scared or too lazy to write good stories with the two species that they had just introduced. The idea to introduce them itself isn't a bad one, and a master race from another dimension would have been an interesting concept for a movie or even an arc on the TV show. Instead, what did we get? Two appearances on Voyager only to never be referenced again. I don't think viewers hated the Borg or 8472, I think they hated the writers for wasting great opportunities for compelling television. What else ya got?
The Enterprise defeated the Borg every time they engaged them in straight battle (BOBW, Descent, FC) and no one complained. They're only one crew. Newtype is saying exactly what I've been saying: He can't stand that there was another species that could fight the Borg and we were actually shown them doing so. He wanted some big, stupid 100 part story instead of a smaller resolution (which is no different than how TNG did it!). No, it's a reminder that you're actually quite small in the food chain and every once in a while you encounter two larger predators going at it. And if the 8472 were from TNG or DS9, she wouldn't have said that. No, you can't tell a bigger story when the show is about a tiny scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up. Now, if they were allowed to drop the "lone ship" thing and gather allies and flesh out the Delta Quadrant (which the premise forbade them from doing), then there's more wiggle room. And if the Borg were never seen again, after BOBW, no one would complain despite them only being in two stories. You just can't win. They gave them "Scorpion" and got squat in return. An audience that bratty and moronic doesn't deserve anything better.
I completely agree with this. The whole "queen" bit removed all that made the borg interesting in the first place.
What, the Cybermen can have their Controllers/Kings/Queens and the Daleks can have their Emperors/Davos, but the Borg can't?
The Cybermen are arguably the inspiration for the Borg, and the Daleks have that whole "Super Dangerous species" thing going on for them. So how exactly are the rules different?
I'd agree the rules aren't different. But the Daleks and Cybermen having leaders is just as annoying as the Borg Queen.