Episode of the Week: Justice

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Captrek, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Evidently I was wrong about the weekly threads not taking hiatuses.

    This week’s episode is Justice.

    My customary comments and nits:

    This is an obvious stunt double because Wil Wheaton couldn’t do anything like that, and I don’t believe Wesley Crusher could do it either.

    Get your mind out of the gutter, Wes.

    Why does everyone keep calling him that? :klingon:

    “Wandered off”? He was told to go play with the other kids and he did. You were there. If you wanted him to stay with the rest of the landing party, you should have said so.

    Everybody is happy with their system. Nobody bristles about the draconian nature of the their justice, nor does it seem that anyone is tempted to risk breaking the law by the very low probability of being in a Punishment Zone.

    I submit there’s more going on here than the simple risk-benefit analysis Rivan and Liator describe. I think the Edo have been fundamentally changed by selective breeding.

    Liator says that “Long, long ago there was much disorder,” and presumably more comprehensive Punishment Zone coverage. We can also imagine that long, long ago they would execute not only the transgressor but the transgressor’s progeny. After a few centuries under the Edo god, removing transgressors from the gene pool and encouraging non-transgressors to make love constantly (and probably to eschew contraception and abortion) you will breed a population naturally disposed to fear the Punishment Zones and obey the law.

    She didn’t know the white fences mean keep out, and she didn’t know the punishments for any transgressions. Her review must not have been very thorough.

    It’s not enough to kill him, you also have to give him “the boy” as the last words he’ll ever hear. Nice.

    Grr...

    Judging by Liator’s comments here and Rivan’s similar comments later, the Edo have an intuitive understanding that respect for the law is based on fear of the Punishment Zones and that aliens powerful enough to resist Edo punishment might not respect Edo law. If that is proven correct, Liator indicates that the Edo will simply go on thinking and living as they always have. Their culture won’t be significantly altered.

    There may be good reason to respect Edo law, but I don’t think the non-interference directive applies.

    You’d think a military organization would have a more succinct way to express that.

    Yes, Dr. Crusher’s species has a perception that goes beyond linear time.

    I enjoyed this bit.

    That’s not a very substantial argument or useful guide.

    You can’t just say “Rules are made to be broken” and then break them. That’s throwing away the rulebook altogether. The rulebook exists for a reason. You have to recognize the purpose of the rule, then advocate an exception by arguing that the proposed exception would not undermine the purpose of the rule or is justified by greater concerns.

    Saying that Punishment Zone law shouldn’t be absolute is a start, but then you have to explain why an exception should be made for Wesley and why making an exception for Wesley won’t undermine the Edo culture that depends on that law. The episode completely omits the substantial part of the argument, leaving the impression that “life is an exercise in exceptions” is all the justification you need when a rule proves inconvenient (assuming you’re one of the good guys, of course).

    This is supposed to be an episode with a moral. Unfortunately, the moral is botched by the episode’s failure to demonstrate its proper application.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Random hipshots:

    Why not? It doesn't look particularly demanding - handstands are much more difficult than cartwheel series.

    Do they?

    I mean, Wesley broke the law by breaking some glass. The fences didn't seem to have anything to do with that.

    The Prime Directive is about many things, non-interference only being one of them. For example the elements our heroes rattle off in "Bread and Circuses" deal with issues of tactical secrecy and security, not non-interference. It doesn't sound implausible that the PD would flat out declare that local laws must be respected to the hilt, too.

    ...Which Kirk obviously didn't do in "Bread and Circuses". But there would no doubt be double, triple or octuple standards about such things, all carefully specified in the Directive.

    And a more descriptive and specific one. Since these vague "three to beam up" orders never end up with the wrong three getting beamed up, it seems as if the order as such is a mere formality, and other, nonverbal means are used for specifying what is actually wanted... Presumably, Picard could thus go quote Shakespeare for all we know, as long as that was what he had formally specified as the trigger phrase.

    And, amusingly, the penultimate script that can be found at TrekCore takes a path where this is not a shortcoming.

    In that version, the Edo are not convinced by Picard's argument at all. Picard merely uses this as his parting words when fleeing with Wesley via transporter, whilst the Edo shout impotent insults at him. He is not interested in what the Edo think - he deals directly with their God now, and the God seems to think the laws of its children are of no particular relevance to it. Interstellar relationships are more important...

    In either version, the moral is that nations with draconian laws can be freely ignored, nuked or made fun of, because they have forfeited any right to reasonable discourse.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. ALF

    ALF Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's one of those "so bad it's actually good" episodes.
    In my classification system, anyway. :D
     
  4. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Commodore

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    What always annoyed me the most about this episode is that the Edo basically tell Picard to just take Wesley and leave very early in the episode, they have no way of stopping him and don't seem to think it's a big deal "Just leave, we make a note and keep screwing each other" but Picard is like "Nah, I'd rather find a way to convince you to change the way your justice system works in a few hours, please keep the boy and threaten him with death".
     
  5. Delsaber

    Delsaber Commodore Commodore

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    I'm with Worf: nice planet.

    Probably would've become one of the Federation's leading tourist traps if it weren't for Risa cornering the market with all those horga'hn statuettes.

    ...oh right, the episode itself. Horrible, horrible stuff, but hilarious. If Rifftrax ever does individual Star Trek episodes, this should be on the shortlist.
     
  6. Mott the barber

    Mott the barber Commodore Commodore

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    It wasn't as bad as I remembered but some of those lines in the original post are really cringe-worthy.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because Wesley is a boy, it only years later that he grows up, attends Starfleet academy and spends the rest of his life harassing Shelden Cooper.

    The cop unlocks the cell door, and loudly declares that he going down the block for coffee, and won't be back for five minutes.

    How dense is Picard anyway?

    :)
     
  8. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Now now, be fair. He also spent part of his life harassing Douglas Fargo.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Always liked this one, but I like most of the first season. :shrug:
     
  10. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    This episode is too filled with satin/silk-wrapped man junk and terrible perms/frizzy wigs for one to enjoy. The "story" in it isn't too bad but I think gets muddied somewhat in goofiness of the story and Wheaton was hardly in his "acting best" this early in the series.

    (He says in a "big boy" voice)
    "I'm with Starfleet. We don't lie."

    Crusher's overreaction here is understandable (unlike many other times when she over-reacts to things concerning Wesley) but when she says things like "no reasonable society would use capital punishment for a minor offense" it sort of smacks in the face of everything we're supposed to believe about humanity in this period of time. Namely they wouldn't so harshly judge another civilization's laws.

    Picard suggests in this episode the Federation has no capital punishment which best fits with what we know about the 24c version of humanity/Earth. But it sort of flies in the face with General Order 7 saying anyone visiting Talos IV gets the DP. Which is dumb and, yeah, best ignored.

    And, well, I love Wil Wheaton's "recap" of this episode.

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLlKz6-8yeo[/yt]
     
  11. inflatabledalek

    inflatabledalek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Poor old Wheaton, in an episode where even Patrick Stewart is struggling he didn't stand a chance did he?

    Pretty much agreed with what everyone else has put, but I'll just add this is probably the least sexy planet of sex maniacs ever committed to film.
     
  12. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ah yes, the "incompetent Yar" episode. She reviews the culture's laws, but learns nothing about them.


    And the "dilemma" is a pretty fake one. No one would seriously suggest that a minor should die for a transgression that harmed no one and that he didn't even know he was committing. If anything, Yar would bear the responsibility.
     
  13. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    The planet's laws were universal, applied to everyone and served one punishment. Yeah it was unreasonable but from their point of view it not only worked it worked brilliantly! The planet was an Eden!

    What's odd to me is that, if I understood correctly, that there's only one place on the entire planet where the "Mediators" are to catch a law being broken and to dispense punishment. No one knows where this place is and it's different everyday. And, again, it's only on ONE place on the planet. No one tramples flowers because they never know if they're in that one spot where the Mediators are.

    So of the entire planet where punishment was being dispensed for breaking the law that day it just happened to be where Wesley was doofusly playing ball?

    That's some shitty luck there.

    And, yeah, Yar really should have done "better homework" when it came to reading up on the planet. It suggests she did read on what was illegal -which she seemed to say was pretty standard- (So "don't be a dink and crash into flower beds" was likely on there.) But she never looked into what the punishment was for breaking the law?! Even if it was a stiff fine what was Wesley to do when they bounded up in unsettling "uniforms" doing a poor job of containing man batches and demanded $500 from him? Just put on his big-boy voice and say, "I'm with Starfleet! We don't carry money!"

    Seemed like someone did drop the ball here and wasn't just Wesley Dick Van Dyke-ing it into a nursery.
     
  14. Mott the barber

    Mott the barber Commodore Commodore

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    I wonder if the kids giggled during that scene in one of the takes. I bet they did. :lol:
     
  15. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    I just finished season 1 and a little ways into season 2 and I don't think season 1 is really that bad either. I enjoy almost all of the episodes. Justice, not without its flaws, is still a pretty good episode.
     
  16. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    Never mind all that philosophy. Brenda Bakke in a skimpy outfit FTW!!! W00t!

    :D
     
  17. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If that's the greatest virtue you can find in the episode, your time would be better spent with Hardbodies 2. (Actually, I do recommend it to anyone who likes the genre. Tons of bare breasts, including Bakke, and a good sense of humor.)

    Were the costumes in this episode by Thiess? Not one of his better efforts, IMO.
     
  18. Zaku

    Zaku Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    but it does very effectively separate criminals from society, as long as there are parole boards you can't say the same for jails.

    "I'll see all of you in twelve years."
    "No you won't."


    :)
     
  20. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Anyone think it is funny how a show can get us something like Justice and then give us something like Chain of Command a few years later? I don't think I know ANY other show that has improved so damn much over its entire run. :lol: