Saquist: Ah, I see what you mean by using the term "Local Time Stream", now. The Enterprise C traveling outside of its time (i.e. temporal incursion) had created a turn of events or a different time line within it's own time line. Seeing the time line was automatically changed when the Enterprise C disappeared from the past, it was traveling to a future that was different than the way it should have been. It was no longer the original time line (i.e. Local Time Stream) that it was supposed to be anymore. Not to quote Spock or anything; but that is... fascinating. In fact, I think I should let him say it. He is way better at relaying that word than me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ Again, another great theory. I love it. But just to be clear: I don't think the altered future time existed until the Enterprise C disappeared thru the time rift. The time portal simply led to the 24th Century within it's own time line. So in a way the Enterprise C was traveling to a Local Time Stream (in the future)... but when it disappeared from the past it effected the time line and created an alternate version within that very same time line. Again, like the Guinan mystery, I think the Klingon's mysterious change in power over the years can still be explained by rational means. As you know, it's been basically said (within Trek) that for any event, there are an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcome will follow, and therefore all possibilities that could happen do happen across countless alternate realities. Perhaps they do investigate other alternate (separate) time lines in addition to their own time line. However, from my impression they seemed more concerned about changes that were made within their own time line then they did some possible diverging time line in the past. Of course there is no way to know for sure. But it is reasonable to assume that is what they were concerned about. My theory behind Endgame is that it could work as a change within a fixed time line or as a separate diverging time line. In a fixed time line: We are seeing events being played out for the crew of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant in a second or third time loop (like in Cause in Effect). Otherwise, Janeway would have ignored the Borg Conduit and moved on. So we are witnessing things through another go around. In other words, Admiral Janeway obviously didn't run into her future self and it took her longer to get home. Time had simply looped itself again when Janeway traveled back through time to the Delta Quadrant. In a diverging (separate) time line: We are seeing events in an alternate or changed time line because Admiral Janeway could have created a separate diverging time line when she traveled back into the past to the Delta Quadrant. Leaving the original time line to either continue on (unknown to her knowledge or erased from time as if it never happened). KottenFutz: Thank you. It's nice to have a fellow admirer of time travel.
Also, I was thinking about separate time lines some more and (in addition to Star Trek Xl) I think Enterprise is the first to spell it out for us concerning time travel to alternate time lines or realities. In A Mirror Darkly shows us very clearly that you can travel in time and cross over from one universe to the next. In fact, who is to say that the Mirror Universe itself is not a long time created diverging time line from a temporal incursion that happened long ago? In other words, with the mystery of First Contact, and the Temporal Cold War and In A Mirror Darkly: I think Enterprise has also been about alternate possibilities and or alternate time lines. But that's just my interpretation and or opinion, of course. Anyways, here is a scene from Enterprise (if anyone is interested)... http://www.tubechop.com/watch/64153
I do love time travel stories, From Back to the Future to Terminator, 12 Monkeys to Time Crimes (no, not Time Cop, YUCK)... But if you wanna get serious about time travel paradox theories, check out a little film called Primer, great stuff. Not for nothing, but it seems whenever anyone else brought up these very ideas about Enterprise, it was disregarded or ignored... now it's some wholly new discovery! You've just caught up with the rest us... I'm just sayin'. You're still awesome.
Yes. The reason why I'm exploring the possibility of a Foreign Time Stream is because weapons fire alone shouldn't cause the temporal divergence. That's the problem with the ENT-C scenario the cause is very vague. The Foreign Time stream explains the weapons catalyst instigating the event and the differences in the Klingon Strength in each Timeline. The Rift much like an accelerated wormhole allows the ENT-C to travel to a different Time Stream but when it returns through the other end they return at the exact moment they left. That means one end of the worm hole was fixed and the other end was accelerated just as it is proposed by Morris Thorne. Otherwise like the theory I postulated that created the rift by means of a Warbird singularity we'd have to speculate how it could be a Local Time Stream Event. It's either a Local Time Stream Divergence... -This usually caused by backward Time Travel on the same Time Stream. The difference created by the introduction from it's own future causes a paradox of events and changes the future. -It can also be caused by an introduction of matter or energy from a Foreign Time Stream which also alters the future of the Local Time Stream Or it's a Foreign Time Stream Event -As speculated a Foreign Time Event insects the Local Time Stream. A catalyst creates a rift between the intersecting Time Stream. In this scenario the Foreign Time Stream has diverged from the Local Time Stream or a related Time Stream in the past accounting for many of the similarities. The Mirror Universe episode of ENT. Would be a Foreign Time Stream event. In this particular scenario Tholian Tricobalt devices produced the rift in an area of instability creating the rift. Hypothetically if this were a similar even that I speculate the ENT-C event to be then the Defiant would have passed into the past believing they had merely traveled backwards in Time. Eventually they would realize the differences. Ultimately other than the Klingons millary might I have no other reason to believe that it is a Foreign Time Stream. Indeed. I viewed the loop as merely a replay of events In cause and effect they were actually replaying the events over and over again. But Voyagers decision was out side the causality that brought Janeway (admiral) to the past. Causality loops have to have trigger on the Time Stream that loops the Stream back before the trigger preventing a future beyond the trigger. Once Janeway (admiral) had decided to go back in time she introduced matter into the past which caused the future to layout different never allowing her choice to have to be recreated again...thus the trigger is gone forever (Local Time Stream) If you use a rift of a wormhole it is very difficult to assure that you are still on your own Time Stream. You have to be able to chart the progress of the wormhole to find out if it leads to another Time Stream or back to your own.. I propose as long as the technology we're talking about is primitive then you can't be capable of truly knowing the difference without temporal sensors. (That means the ability to see out side your universe) Thus the 29th century ship Relativity was such a ship equipped to see into other times and realities. But Janeway (admiral) was dealing with experimental technology. The Krenim Time ship was also a another example of being able to monitor time streams accurately.
KottenFutz: Yes, I did see Primer and Time Crimes. In fact, if you are curious, here are... My Favorite Time Travel or Altered Time Line Films: 1. Back to the Future Trilogy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGeEbDTNzos 2. The Returner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v4pWshsQ1U 3. Primer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CC60HJvZRE 4. 12:01 http://videodetective.com/titledetails.aspx?publishedid=965721 5. Cube 2: Hypercube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmm_HzNXyY0 6. The Jacket: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCxQ83Pg1Ko 7. Terminator Quadrilogy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIqba7JuAQ4 8. Star Trek lV: The Voyage Home: http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/star-trek-iv-the-voyage-home/trailer 9. Star Trek: First Contact: http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/star-trek-first-contact/trailer 10. Star Trek (2009): http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/star-trek-xi/feature-trailer 11. Army of Darkness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtOkUsD3odc 12. Frequency: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trIMt9mZIdU 13. Donnie Darko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5dVSgILS3Y 14. Butterfly Effect: http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/butterfly-effect/trailer 15. Timecrimes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrzI3lVzQnM 16. Groundhog Day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_yDWQsrajA My Favorite Time Travel Mini Series: 1. 5ive Days to Midnight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6nJtMVKssE 2. The Triangle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRBcTiRCiKs 3. Lost Room: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhAGrJW2Tos My Favorite Star Trek Time Episodes: The Original Series: 1. Tomorrow is Yesterday 2. The City on the Edge of Forever 3. All Our Yesterdays The Next Generation: 1. Time Squared 2. Yesterday's Enterprise 3. Cause and Effect 4. Timescape Deep Space Nine: 1. Visionary 2. The Visitor 3. Little Green Men 4. Trials and Tribble-ations 5. Wrongs Darker than Death or Night Voyager: 1. Timeless 2. Relativity 3. Endgame Enterprise: In A Mirror, Darkly l In A Mirror, Darkly ll Cool. Well, I am glad that I was able to contribute in some way. I am honored. Thank you. Aw shucks. Well, I appreciate that.
Saquist: Yeah, anything is possible. I just personally feel that the events we see in "Yesterday's Enterprise" is a change that is effecting the local time line and not a spill over into another time line or a creation of a completely new one (while the old one still exists). The reason I think this is because it looks like the time line is being changed (or altered) both at the beginning of the episode and towards the end. Plus, there was no passage of time in the prime time line, either... http://www.tubechop.com/watch/64295 http://www.tubechop.com/watch/64294 I don't know. My blanket theory behind a diverging (separate) time line is that there is normally no noticeable changes to the time line within the movie or episode (when there should have been) or when we are looking at two separate time lines (back and forth) like in Endgame (and we don't see time correcting itself). However, normally whenever we see a change in the time line (whether small or big), it is usually a time travel incident inside it's own local time line. As you know: the only separate diverging time line (that co-exists alongside the Prime Time Line) that has been officially confirmed to us is Star Trek Xl which was mentioned by one of the writers (in an official public interview). I mean, it's the same theory I already brought up about Back to Future or any other time travel movie that seemingly proposes to alter events within their own time line. If I travel back in time and change my own past and start to erase my own existence (like in Back to the Future), then how come the original time line up until the point of the actual time travel incident still exists (which is usually the events we see at the beginning of the film)? Well, my theory on fictional time travel is that whenever you time travel within your own time line, you create a feedback loop or a repeat of time. That is why we are allowed to see the original time line unfold before it is changed (by the time travel incident). I mean, you kind of have to look at time as if it has already happened. We are just looking back at all the alternate possibilities and changes that were made to that time line. And the infinite loop theory helps to suggest that we are allowed to see those changes. Unless of course your a firm believer in the multi-verse time theory only. In which all time lines simply duplicate and diverge into separate time lines that are different or separate from the original or local time line. Personally, I think Endgame is a bit of a mystery. In my opinion, there is evidence to suggest that it can be a separate alternate time line or a fixed time line that is simply being altered. I don't think there is evidence either way that suggests that all wormholes or temporal rifts create diverging (separate) time lines or are gateways into one's own time line. I think both wormholes and temporal rifts are just simply doorways. Sometimes they can lead into your own time line and sometimes they can push you into a separate alternate time stream. However, I do really still like your theory that "fixed time line travel" and "multi-verse time line travel" can both exist. Totally kick butt, my friend. I mean, I know this has already been mentioned by someone else, but it really helps Daniels statement (in Shockwave) make more sense, thats for sure... "You're thinking of time travel like we're in some H.G. Wells novel. We're not. It's far more complicated. There's no way for you to understand." Yeah, I can see that. The starship Relativity and the Krenim time ship would most definitely have the capability to see changes within time lines inside and outside their own time stream.
Enterprise is a huge improvement over Voyager. Never understood the venom spewed towards it really. And it's cannon to me.
John 200: Welcome to the thread, John. Personally, I still like Enterprise (in my own way) and consider the show to be canon. Here is my recent small post about Enterprise's canon... http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4030116&postcount=352 And here is my longer version of Enterprise's canon with video links and lists and what not... http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3997372&postcount=224
Yeah, currently we are discussing time travel as a way of understanding Enterprise and or Star Trek as a whole better. So far we have come to belief that time travel can be accomplished... 1. Within your own time line (i.e. Local Time Line) (Trials & Tribble-ations, Visionary, and Past Tense l & ll) 2. By creating a duplicate time line or traveling to a diverging separate time line within in an infinite number of co-existing time lines (i.e. Multi-verse) (Cause & Effect, First Contact, and Star Trek Xl) My personal theory that helps to distinguish one from the other is that if there is no noticeable changes to the time line within the episode or the following episodes afterwards, then there is a good chance that we are looking at a "Diverging (Separate) Time Line" within an infinite number of time lines (i.e. Multi-verse).
Just watched Voyager's "Shattered". This further confirms that there are separate alternate time lines. In Voyager: we see a fractured point in space time that shows us two different possible futures that could not have happened after or around "Endgame". In fact, in addition to Star Trek Xl: This Voyager episode confirms the existence of alternate separate diverging time lines within the Star Trek Universe. However, there appears to be evidence that local times can still be effected directly within the Trek-verse, as well. So personally, it is starting to make more sense to me that Enterprise is a separate diverging time line that was a result of First Contact. Why do I think this? Well there was no evidence that shows us any noticeable changes to the time line after First Contact. Plus, we see a First Contact sequel within Enterprise (i.e. Regeneration) and a more advanced depiction of the 22nd Century (compared to the way it was described to us in the other series). Granted, the Voyager episode "Relativity" tells us that the event at First Contact was a predestination paradox and that the Federations owes it's existence to the Borg. This suggests we are naturally seeing the result of the changes to the time line by seeing Enterprise. However, the Future Time Agency could have left the actual incident in the movie First Contact to still take place, but they simply later erased or fixed the time line at a later point (In order to preserve the time line). Perhaps the very act of the Future Time Agency fixing the time line after First Contact led to the Temporal Cold War in the first place and this caused a split or a divergence within the time line (after First Contact). In other words: Two First Contact Time Lines were created. The "Enterprise First Contact Time Line" (that we see in the TV series) and the "Prime First Contact Time Line" (that continued on without any major changes to the time line). Side Note: In addition: I came up with something else, too. Just what time line did Picard and crew return to when they went back to the 24 Century (when there was no visible change)? Here are a few theories. Picard and crew could have returned... 1. To a separate alternate time line that was pretty much identical to their own. This means Enterprise is continuing on within yet another parallel time line somewhere with it's own unique 24th Century that we have not seen before (besides TATV). 2. To their own local time (which never could have been destroyed to begin with (despite the belief or the illusion that timelines can actually be erased)). And Enterprise simply exists in an alternate time line (where a set of events play out differently in the future). 3. To a fixed time line that patches up any alterations that would have changed the future time line sometime after Enterprise. 4. To a fixed time line that erases the majority of events we see in Enterprise. 5. To their own local time while the Enterprise time line somehow splits off (i.e. gets fixed or naturally diverges) to continue on in it's own separate alternate time line (sometime after First Contact).
It also means their could be a Time Stream where the Enterprise didn't return to the correct Time Stream.
Yeah, I am thinking that, too. Picard and crew more than likely traveled back to a separate diverging time line one of two ways. 1.) When Picard and crew tried to lock on to the spacial time coordinates back to the future (when recreating the temporal vortex), they noticed that their spacial coordinates where off slightly because the time line was no longer there. So they locked on to a slightly different set of spacial coordinates to a parallel time line that was nearly identical to their own (thinking it was their own time line). 2.) When Picard and crew influence Lily and Cochrane into advancing the time line (technologically), the Future Temporal Agency noticed the change in the time line and made an attempt at correcting the time line. However, in the process they accidentally split the time line into two separate time lines, though. The first time line being the Temporal Cold War with the starship Enterprise. The second time line being the repaired time line that Picard and crew traveled back to the future to (by recreating the Temporal Vortex).
Oh, and I made a mistake about "Visionary" being a Local Time Line. At the beginning of the episode it started off with time travel involving a local time line. However, as the episode progressed: it started looking more and more like the time travel was happening in a separate diverging time line. Especially the last time travel scene towards the end of the episode. So "Visionary" is actually an example of a separate diverging time line or time lines. If anyone needs another example: TOS's "Tomorrow is Yesterday" would be another example of a Local Time Line.
Tomorrow is Yesterday The Enterprise in attempt to break free from a black star had ended in getting flung back in time to the late 1960's on Earth. It definitely was time travel to a local time line type because the warp drive was the catalyst of the time travel incident. Visionary: The Chief traveled forward in time many different times because he was infected with radiation that was attracting temporal fluctuations from a singularity inside a Romulan vessel. I have come to the conclusion that the chief travels both to his local time at first and then to an alternate time line (because of the events shown to us). Side Note: Personally, I am going through all of the Star Trek time travel episodes and studying them as a little side project. And my view of Enterprise of course plays an important role within that.
Not to be pushy: but have you checked out my post yet, friend? http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3997372&postcount=224