Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Merge]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Sounds plausible.

But you know, the funny thing is, before I joined this forum I never wasted any time worrying about such details. I just accepted the differences as...well, things that don't matter.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Nothing about this film indicates so-called "linear" time travel.

Not while marooned on Delta Vega. If you intend to speculate that he could have grabbed a starship and traveled back in time at a later point, why would that necessarily be covered within the events and timeframe of this film? If he decided on more time travel as a course of action, why would there be any urgency? In the meantime, contributing to the rescue of the Abramsverse Federation would seem the logical thing to do.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Oh, I see. I’d have to re-watch the show I’ve only seen it 4 times since it came out all those years back.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I don't see the point of complaining about the Romulan's forehead ridges. For one thing, Nero and his crew have them--the make-up is just more subtle than it was on TNG and DS9. Second, we've seen Romulans without forehead ridges in the 23rd century (both Star Trek as well as TFF and TUC). Third, we've seen Romulans with forehead ridges in the 22nd century on Enterprise. Fourth, we saw Spock blending into a crowd of Romulans in "Unification," despite having no forehead ridges. It stands to reason, then, that there is some variation of the ridges among Romulans.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

^This, when it comes to the ridges, however, there are many other problems.

The artificial Black Holes was mentioned.

The design aesthetic of the Romulan ships was mentioned, and I'd like to add; it's not just the 24th century ships, it's the 23rd TOS and even 22nd century ships as well: resembling birds of prey, with a bird's of prey's wings painted on the under side.

Now for the ones not yet mentioned:

Spock being surprised in 2256 that Kirk is not the commander of the Enterprise, despite the fact that in the prime universe Kirk would still be a Lieutenant or Lieutenant Commander, probably serving on the Faragut; and Spock was serving under Captain Pike on the Enterprise. The Spock from the universe we've been following for the past 40 years, may be surprised Kirk isn't a Lieutenant on a ship, but not that he's not the Captain of the Enterprise.

The Kelvin is too big for Prime Universe ships of the same era, its design aesthetics are also 50 years in the Prime Universe's future. (2233 - 2280s). If this universe is the universe that Old Spock came from up until the moment of the Narada's arrival; that means that that universe would also have that Kelvin, which can't be the Prime Universe. Result; Old Spock origin is not the Prime Universe.

In the same way, you can see many more differences in this universe, before the Narada even arrives; no shock at what a Romulan looks like from the Kelvin crew, along with a mere cadet knowing all of the Romulans' dialects, which is something the Prime Universe 24th century seems to have, suggestion long-time contact with Romulans, while in the Prime Universe the Romulans were not seen or heard from until 2266 by Kirk.

Nero being pissed off that "the Federation didn't help the Romulans" and him going on the assumption that Federation has an obligation to do so, produces a Romulan Star Empire; or rather a Romulan Nation that is a third world nation that's been the Federation's colony, a nation that could do nothing about their destruction themselves, and the ones that caused it have duties to those they weakened; not an equal, and enemy Star Empire whose alliance was needed to defeat the Dominion. Once more showing the Narada and Old Spock's origin to be that of a very different universe than the Prime one. (Which incidentally ties in with the differences noted above. It seems both the two universes / time lines depicted in the movie, are ones where the Humans / pre-curser Federation / Alliance didn't simply fight the Romulans back and then set up a peace treaty, but one where they conquered the Romulans entirely, and only slowly over time allowed them their independence again, while firmly keeping them down to stave off a repeat of the Romulan War.)

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So the mining vessel has to look like a bird of prey? Why? That's like saying all Starfleet vessels have to look the same. They don't.

Assuming he knows the year.

That isn't a problem, that's more of your opinion. There is nothing to prove that it's "too big" for the era. And before someone brings up "Well the ships after it were smaller in the prime universe" then I'd like to point out that there has never been a written rule that this ships have to get bigger as they go on. This was obviously proven in "The Next Generation" and after, the ships obviously got smaller as time goes on. Basically, the ships are made to be the size they need to be. Same rule applies here, there is no problem.

So was it supposed to look less futuristic than the NX-01? That's the only way they could do it.

Speculation.

Of course he is.

They don't know they are Romulan at the time. "Where are you from?" to quote Captain Robau.

They still have old radio transmissions to go by plus any other references.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I'm assuming 3D Master missed the "agape" look on the Kelvin crew when a psychotic, bald, tattooed Vulcan appeared on the screen? Besides Trek (especially TOS) comes across multiple almost-human aliens all the time. Why would an almost-Vulcan be a shock?

About the Kelvin's size: The Voyager can to everything the Enterprise-D can, yet is a fraction of the size. If there were big and small ships in the 24th century with similar capibilities, it's kind of small-minded to insist that there weren't in the 23rd just because we didn't see them until now (remember when they suddenly invented Remans?)

About the Kelvin's look: IMO it's along the lines of what TOS would have "really" looked like. You wouldn't expect George Kirk to read about the attack from a little "Cage"-style printer attached to the sciences' console?

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Whatever it can look like, it can't look like a Shadow Battlecrab from Babylon 5.

And sorry, but yes, all Starfleet vessels may not look exactly the same, but they ALL look alike. Even the massive different design-philosophy of the Defiant-class, even that ship still has the same hull composition and coloring, as well as the same insignias.

The Narada-crab, wasn't even anywhere in the neighborhood.

If he didn't know the year, why would he be surprised? If he didn't know the year and saw a Cadet Kirk, any rational person would assume a time/year before Kirk took command of the Enterprise, possibly even, before he even graduated the Academy. Yet he was surprised Kirk wasn't the captain of the Enterprise, despite the fact there has been at least one other captain of the Enterprise, and this Kirk is very young and still cadet uniform and insignias.

Uh, no, the Galaxy-class was A LOT bigger than TOS Enterprise. The point is, that the Enterprise in the Prime Universe was the pinnacle that Starfleet had. It also still carries the design and engineering eastetic of the Prime 2280s.

Bullshit. It was supposed to look like something designed around the 2200s-2230s prime universe; it didn't, it looked like something designed in the 2280s prime universe. And this has got nothing to do with looking less futuristic.

Nope, logical reasoning.

Nope, he is not.

Then they should still be surprised they're seeing Vulcans in something that doesn't even come close to Vulcan.

Old radio transmissions? You think old radio transmissions manage to survive intact enough to be used to decipher not just one language, but three entire dialects of one?

As for other references; name them.

They were already agape when the Narada arrived. There's nothing about it that has anything to do with the Vulcan or Romulan; and it goes shut pretty fast. And they aren't as agape as you like to make it out to be.

Except of course, that in the Prime Universe the Constitution-class was the largest most powerful most modern vessel Starfleet had. You can have many different designs of ships, but all of them, have to be smaller than the Constitution-class.

And why not?

Besides which, I'm not talking about the interior. I'm talking about the exterior. The outside as the design and engineering aesthetics of the 2280s, not the 2230s.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Calling the TOS Enterprise the "largest, most powerful" ship is speculation, nothing more.

The TOS Enterprise could be the most advanced, much like how Voyager had a few little technological improvements over the E-D, but don't mistake "biggest" for "best".

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Of course not, there are only about a hundred pieces of dialog and information in TOS that the Constitution-class is the largest most powerful class of ship in the fleet, but you'll just forget about that when it is inconvenient to your position.

Even if it were true, still won't help you with the design and engineering aesthetics.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I suppose you have examples of these pieces of dialog.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

1. The dialog with military test in The Ultimate Computer facing of against the best the fleet has to offer.

2. The dialog in Bread and Circuses about how the Enterprise that Kirk commands isn't a mere spaceship that the traitor captain was commanding, a starship which was an entirely different thing.

3. How there are only twelve like it in the fleet; showing how advanced, new, and big it is.

And if I bother to rewatch the entire series I'm sure I can find more.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Okay, the ridges may not be that big a deal. But they were to me. I would have preferred that Nero and his cronies look like the TNG-era Rommies that we are familiar with instead of Darth Maul with pointy ears. But that's just me.

Agreed. But the more industrial Romulan ships my not have the BoP pained on them. However, there is a known design aesthetic among 24th century, TNG-era Romulan vessels that was clearly not followed in STXI. Now, I know "Countdown" mentions that the Narada was modified with some kind of Borg tech. I haven't bothered to read it, and I probably won't. And since it's not "canon" and the movie should be able to stand on its own without having to read a graphic novel or comic series to get the necessary background to fill in the blanks, "Countdown" is really a non-issue when discussing the merits of the movie itself. As for the Narada, Nero states that it is "a simple mining vessel". Not a "big, bad-ass, Borg-ified, tentacled killing machine from hell." If the Narada is a simple mining vessel in the 24th century, why do the Romulans even need Warbirds? The Narada clearly dwarfs any of those larger-than-Galaxy-class warbirds of the 24th century that we know of. It also apparently outguns them too. It's possible that the Romulan Warbirds in the Abramsverse 24th century may even be based upon those mining ships like the Narada, just with more powerful weapons.

That bugged me too. NuKirk was clearly younger than the Captain Kirk that the Spock that we know should have remembered. And I'm sure OldSpock knew what year it was. He's pretty smart. Also, Nero probably told him what year it was when he had him prisoner on the Narada. Cuz that's what maniacal madmen do when they monologue their schemes to the good guy they've just captured. But yes, to our Spock, Kirk should have been a rank or two under Captain at that time. And OldSpock should have known that.

I definitely agree with this. The Kelvin just looked...wrong. That's not saying it wasn't a good looking ship. I liked the design. It just didn't look like an early 23rd century starship should. It looked too much like the TMP refit. Plus there was that lit-up deflector. That was totally out of place. The size issue is debatable. I tend to agree that it was too big, what with 40+/- shuttles!?!? That's one froggin gigantic ship the likes of which is never seen in Trek until at least the 24th century. And I don't even think the Galaxy class had that many shuttles. It just doesn't fit. Besides, the Kelvin scene was only 12 minutes. How hard would it have been to make the Kelvin and its bridge and engineering section look like something from TOS just for that short amount of time to make it clear that this was actually the TOS 23rd century that we know? Then they could have done whatever with the branched-off timeline and it wouldn't have mattered as much to fans like me.

Agreed.

Absolutely! This paints the 24th century TNG-era Rommies in a totally different light. The TNG Rommies that we know are a highly technologically advenced species with enormous Warbirds that outsize and outgun Galaxy class starships. They use artificial singularitits to power their starships. Why would they need the Federation or Spock's help to neutralize the "galaxy-threatening (*chuckle*)" supernova? The Romulans we know were clearly advanced enough to handle this problem themselves. To me, that shows that the 24th century Rommies from the Abramsverse are clearly not the same ones that we know from TNG.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

1. Again you're confusing "biggest" with "best".

2. The NX-01 was a starship 100 years previously. Spaceship probably applies to short-range vessels.

3. So what if there are only 12 connies? It's irrelevent to how big they are. At most it might suggest that some advanced components involved are hard to produce.

"It was the only ship we saw during TOS so it must be the biggest ever made" sounds small minded to me. Since when did technological advancement work that way?

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Wrong, they do.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

And if it weren't the biggest, if there were bigger ships, with bigger power plants, and thus with bigger more powerful weapons, M5 would have had to prove itself against those as well; avoiding getting hit.

The fact that there are no larger ships for M5 to fight, is evidence for the Constitution-class being the biggest starship in the fleet.

And small vessels, vessels with very little armaments - aka it doesn't have the power to level a planet with the ground. The larger crew and the responsibility means not just anyone gets to captain such a vessel.

And the reason the NX-01 is called a starship, is because the Enterprise writers were either idiots, or the idiot suits at the studio went to fuck with them.

The NCC-1701, is the FIRST starship to bear the name Enterprise, as mentioned in multiple subsequent series.

If it wasn't the biggest and most difficult starship to build; why are there only twelve? In a fleet that must be numbering thousands at least, a smaller ship would be built more often, and the larger ships would be built less often. There would be many more like it, if it wasn't the biggest ship to be built.

Except that it wasn't the only ship we saw. We also saw enemy vessels, none larger than the Enterprise. Further, it isn't that it's the only one we've ever seen, it's also what is said about them, how many there are, etc. etc.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

That there were no larger ships in the vacinity at the time is hardly proof they didn't exist. Why test M5 against a 30-year old ship when you've got 5 of the most advanced models nearby? Starfleet wouldn't test against an obsolete design.

Blame useless writers all you want, but it was said in Enterprise that the NX-01 was a "starship". A few comments here and there don't stand up against an entire series. The NX-01 Enterprise had almost all the functionality of the 1701. If one's a starship, the other is.

There would be many more Consitiution-class ships if they were easier to build. Size doesn't matter here: Smaller, more complex engineering components with the same or better abilities as those on a larger ship would be more difficult to build than the bigger versions.

We don't know how many Kelvin-type ships were built. It could have been 3, it could have been dozens. Using "12 connies" as proof of an alternate universe when there's nothing to measure against is a waste of time.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Here's some starships facts:

1. In TMP, radio chatter acknowledged the U.S.S. Entente NCC-2120, a Federation class dreadnought from Franz Josoeph's Tech Manual. There was also a graphic in TWOK showing the silhouette of the Federation class dreadnought, a ship clearly larger than the Constitution class. Make of that what you will.

2. In TWOK, Spock clearly states that the Reliant, a smaller ship than the Enterprise, is faster and has more weaponry than the Enterprise. So size means jack shit.

3. Just because Kirk or whoever made a statement that there were only "12 [Connies] in the fleet," also means jack. For all we know, there were just twelve active Connies when he made that statement, but several dozen more could have been in the process of being constructed.

 

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

It wouldn't be an obsolete design, especially not if supported by the newer ships. The large ship, would have large power cores, and thus be able to fire more powerful weapons. It's a very tried and true fleet composition, several large ships with extremely powerful weapons, protected by smaller but more maneuverable ships. Allowing the larger ships to unleash the more powerful weapons, despite it's lack of speed and maneuverability.

So if you want to test M5 and you have larger more powerful vessels like such, you would test it against combined arms fleet composition.

If the comments are part of the series that started it all, and offending series has problems up the wazoo and not just this one instance, then yes, the original comments stand up against that series.

Bullshit. Smaller more complex engineering components is the hallmark of miniaturization and with it automation. The smaller components would be built at an equal past at worse, and as you can build more with the same pace as they are smaller, you would get components faster than the old version. The real bottleneck with ship building is the size of the ship.

I disagree; but even if you were right, you still haven't dealt with the style, design and construction aestethics of 2280s in the Prime universe versus it flying around in 2230s.

Which was a ship-class that was created after the Constitution-class. And I'm not so sure it is bigger. It seems it is a Constitution class with a third warp-nacelles to power more and more powerful weaponry. A dedicated warship.

More weaponry, yes, NOT, however, more POWERFUL weaponry. Unless an older bigger ship still has a much older class of weapons that isn't as efficient with the energy, or can't deal with a certain of energy without burning out, a bigger ship, with bigger power cores, is capable of putting more energy into its weapons, and thus fire more powerful weapons.

Which means exactly jack shit when it comes to a fleet of thousands and a ship-class that has been around for at least two decades.