Supernatural 4x10 "Heaven and Hell" spoiler discussion thread

Hello good people. Well, the reveal is tonight. Dean's time in hell, along with him and Anna testing out the double standards of the fandom. Matt Roush made it his pick of the week.

Of course my husband is home and threatening to take the remote. He thinks he will. I watch one show a week live now that Mad Men is gone for the season. He will give me this hour or he'll find his cigarettes are hiding from him.

 

Hide his underwear, too. That'll learn 'im.

 

It'll bug him more if I hide his beer.

 

I love it. Anna's an angel. Probably a nephilim. Dean gets angel booty and Sam gets demon booty.

 

So which one will get you more damnation?

 

Probably Dean.

 

Wow.



Wow. That was a stunning episode. I loved it all. Even Ruby didn't seem useless (the actress). And Dean told them where Anna was....and she forgave him. That was a punch in the gut, yet somehow perfect because of why he did it.

That ending......oh my God. What a phenomenal actor Ackles is. I don't know how he pulls that out of himself and makes it so authentic. Now I know what Padalecki was talking about when he said it made him cry on set.

 

I cried when he was telling his story. 30 years?! OMG, my poor Dean.

Great ep. Glad I got a chance to watch it. Can't believe we have to wait until January. Bummer.

 

Gave in to my morbid fascination again. Cruised TWOP. They're crucifying the episode. Saying it's ruining the season. What do those people want? Good thing I was banned last week, or I'd get banned this week. Anyone who likes it is unceremoniously tossed off the forum.

 

I am surprised, they have a usual bunch that I can predict on how they are going to feel about an episode (pretty much just from the casting), but the hatred for this episode from so many has got me worried. I mean out of 7 pages I read about 6 people who liked it, some neutral and by far teh large majority hated it.

 

last time it was Kripke that was almost in tears when Dean stopped the car and talked to sam. I think it was in season 2

 

I think it's down to their maniacal reading of every spoiler, every side for every episode, then they decide how they want an episode to go and if it doesn't meet expections, they turn on it. I didn't think it was a perfect episode (still could do without Ruby and the gratuitous torture scene--Genevieve Cortese is bad) but the vitriol directed at it by TWOP stuns me. It's this fascinating addiction I can't rid myself of. What will they hate next? They resent Ruby's presence with a violent passion. Violent. They want it to be all about Dean and Sam only again, with a little Castiel eye fucking with Dean thrown in. Now they want "seasons one and two back." It isn't coming back, folks. They're territorial about Dean and Sam's screentime.

There is one slice of cheese after the sex scene in the window that made me roll my eyes. Kripke must have been drinking a little gin, or maybe he thought it was funny. I'll have to subtract for that, too.

 

Well I finally saw it and it was both good and bad.

Lets start with the bad. Alistar (or however you spell it) accent. Last episode he used it but his dialogue was far more limited and less noticeable. This time I thought damn, key it back.

The actress playing Anna. Sorry in this episode she started to annoy me.

Ruby, actually a little less each time. But she still isn't a positive for the show.

Dean getting touched by an Angel. Yuck, first it was filmed very lame. But also I didn't feel it. I have no problem with Dean having sex. Basic part of his character, but so far the 2 times they have shown it is with actresses he has no chemistry with, what's up with that.

At least with Sam, I understood why he did it, but this time nothing.

Her grace. THough this is a common portrayal in film and tv. its one I generally don't care for. I think they only time I have really dug it was in Lord of the Rings. BUt see there I actually cared about the actors and actresses. Here not so much.

Not having an idea if Sam and Ruby are actually still having sex. I can understand the first time (no problem at all), but unless I don't know if I buy the hint that its been an ongoing thing unless... see next section.

Likes. Pamela. Because like her I would also grab Dean's package and Sam's ass. And I would certainly be game for the three way. BUt like her reaction to the whole angel aspect.

The dialogue between Alistar and Ruby (not his voice or her talent, but the actual dialogue).

The conversation with Dean and Uriel.

Sam hiding something dark that grants him the ability to use his gifts (thats got me very curious). Unless its Sam has to sleep with Ruby to get his mojo on then thats just lame.

Showing that the knife doesn't just kill you if it cuts you (sure they showed Samhein but he is one of the tougher demons so far). SO its appears it needs to be a kill shot. Which would explain that Allistar if not hit immediately with a kill shot would have the ability to survive.

Loves: Dean's conversation. Get the guys by the car in a nice secluded environment and it never disappoints. By it Dean admitting how he feels about Dad's deal, or Dean confessing about what Dad told him about Sam, or Dean teaching Sam how to fix the car, or Sam confronting Dean about his demon powers. And this one also lays it all out. Jensen truly manages these bits well.

Things to ponder. If each month is like a decade, then John was there for about 90 years and came up reading to rumble in mere seconds. JOhn might be a bastard, but he holds on to his vengeance.

And based on the angels then Sam should have been there for at least a bit of time. Assume dead for a day, and that puts Sam in hell for about 120 days.

And while they have never said Sam went to hell there is strong reasons to think he did go.

 

I've got no reason to assume Sam went to hell.

See--you have reasoned constructive criticisms. Far cry from my favorite nuthouse psycho site to lurk in. They've even gone so far to ask if Dean cares about Sam anymore. The old "it's not Supernatural anymore" refrain is ringing down. If it's not season one, it isn't Supernatural. They're glad for the hiatus, because they need the break. Dean and Sam are "extras in their own show." They're dumb. They're stupid. Worst episode of the series.

This newbie poster chimed in saying, "If this is what you guys think is the worst episode of the series," then I'm buying seasons one, two, and three on DVD tomorrow to catch up. He thought they were all nuts. Barnes will probably ban him for being "confrontational." Positive posters rarely seem to last. I though Alistair was cute. He's Drake from Aliens. How can you not love him? He thought Vasquez was badass. Speaking of badass, I love Uriel. He's such a glorious dick.

They're so busy criticizing, not one of them caught that we were told the reason why Dean was pulled out of hell. I guess they needed it spoonfed to them because they all missed it.

 

Well the reasons that I would assume that Sam went hell are based on two primary assumption.

Assumption #1, God is the one who decrees who goes to Heaven or Hell (though if Demons are then even more reason that Sam would be in Hell). If God is the one who decides what behavior gets you downstairs then based on what little we know of him (it) he seems to be very Old Testament. Very much you do something that pisses me off then your are damned.

Assumption #2
And so far we know of three things that piss God off, disobedience, Lucifer rising, and Sam using demon breed abilities.

And while most of Sam's early use of demonic powers were not of conscience choice, there are is one time and certainly two attempts (one that perhaps worked). They are in Salvation when Sam has his vision of the YED killing the mother. He actively tries to get inside that vision he actually reconnects to it (3 times I believe) to dig out more details. The first time he ever does this. 2nd time he tries to use telekinesis to stop John/YED in Devil's Trap. 3rd time (and this is not only tries but might have succeeded) in being to connect with Dean when he was in a comatose state. He also encouraged others to use their ability before he died (Vision to Dean). That should be enough with a fire and brimstone God. A God who intent isn't a huge mitigating factor.

This is a being that has Angels actively threatening not to wait for him to die to pass judgment, but to end him now. Thats with him so far being shown to use his powers only for the good of others.

If Demons have a say then two fold. Lucifer would want him for one of two reasons falling to kill in "American Idol". Or if Azazel was working around Lucifer, for being one of Azazel's toy soldiers. In either case, Lucifer should want to see him burn for it.

So far based on what little we know of either entity, there is no real reason that Sam would be chosen for God's grace, nor really even a purgatory status (if their is one in SN's verse).

 

Sam hadn't started using his demon abilities yet when Jake killed him. Not consciously, as you said. If God's angry at that, then God's a dick. Maybe that's Kripke's point. No one's sure of anything anymore but Dean still wants to be good in spite of it all. No certainty of heaven or eternal reward. There's your angel.

 

BUt see I think he did use his visions consciously in Salvation (not the very first time he has the vision) but each other time that he does. And he certainly tries to in Devil's Trap and In My Time of Dying. He also encourages their use in All Hells Breaks Loose I. And encouraging others to commit blasphemy is a huge old testament violation. Trying to do something that God would feel is evil (even if unsuccessful) is also a big your in trouble.

And thats not counting if he actually was successful in Salvation in getting some control over his visions for the first time (which I do think is the case) and if he was successful in being able to sense Dean in "In My Time of Dying".

This is a God (at least as portrayed so far) that isn't big on second chances. Or taking events into consideration.

 

God seems that way to a lot of people. Not everyone sees God as a loving God who cares. Kripke may not seem him that way. I find it a ballsy approach.

Dean needs to be a Unitarian Universalist like me. We like everybody. The end scene is already up on youtube. Supposedly Sam "did nothing" in it according to the crazy crowd. I guess him crying in the background wasn't enough. He listened to his brother and didn't judge. What else can the man do? If there was one scene that was perfect, it was this one.

Dean tells Sam about hell

 

Buy him an ice cream and hang out in Bobby's panic room for the rest of their lives. That way, the show will be as boring and stagnant as the TWoP folks want it to be.

There's really not much to do when you're in COMPLETE AND UTTER SHOCK and EMOTIONALLY WRECKED.

 

I love that when the TWOP folks hate it, it's Matt Roush's pick for best episode of the week. One of them wants to know why Sam didn't ask these questions of Dean sooner. He did ask--in the premiere episode--and Dean said he didn't remember. Sam didn't go there because, as we know, Dean doesn't go there easily and there have been major problems because of Sam and Ruby's connection and Sam using his powers. The brotherly strain is no excuse, dammit!! They want Dean and Sam to snuggle and be wincest-y in that panic room. Oh, and to invite Castiel for some sex. All except the newbies, who usually seem to like things, who pop up every week and then just as quickly disappear because they realize the regular crowd is whacked.