Right. I'd better change my mass figures for the Galaxy class (make it 4,960,000) and Nebula (make it 4,047,000).
Gotta point out here that the mass stated in "Mudd's Women" for a TOS Constitution is "almost a million gross tons". The 190,000 tonne figure is non-canon and non-sensical. If the ship were 190,000 tonnes then it would be 25% less dense than an Apollo capsule or the later USS Voyager (the two being equal is not a coincidence, BTW). It would also be 90% as dense as water. We know that starships of the 23rd and 24th Century are generally more dense than water. Voyager, which we would expect to be as light as possible, had a density 20% greater than that of water, based on canon statements of mass and observable dimensions. Vessels seen to crash in water (Jem'Hadar or Klingon) have all been seen to sink (though the KBoP was in the shallow waters of the SF Bay (average depth 14 feet)). I personally conclude that if the Constitution could have been 900,000 gross tons, give or take, resulting in a mass of some 915,000 metric tonnes. However, you could swing the gross tonnage about 100k either way to your liking.
^ Yeah, we just had a thread about this. I don't see a big problem with a floating 1701, myself, and would expect Voyager to be a bit more dense than 1701, but not wayyyyy less dense. Voyager is the only one we know for sure is more dense than water; Enterprise-D isn't (around .86 by your volume numbers). 1701 at a million tons would be the outlier, so I can't view 190,000 tons as nonsensical. The "gross tons" thing is a bit odd and a number of non-canon sources support the 190,000 ton figure, so it works for stuff like this.
I have replied in the thread you referred to, and will take your post and my reply to that thread, as well. Didn't see it on the second page and haven't been here in awhile, sorry.
Anyone have a good overhead picture or ortho of the AWACS-type pod on the Nebula? Trying to get a fix on how big that pod is. Also, it's my understanding the nacelles on the Enterprise-E were moved around for "Nemesis" and that the ship is actually a bit shorter now; is that true? Anyone have the revised length/width/height for the "new" E? Well, I guess width wouldn't really change...
Thanks, JNG. Since asking the question, I have seen a link to an article on the Sov redesign for "Nemesis", but there was mention that the nacelles were moved upwards as well some eight meters, making the ship now some 96 meters tall now? Seems a bit excessive. Any thoughts?
Also, a correction for the Type 9 shuttlecraft: 8.5 x 4.5 x 2.34. And for the Starfleet Command staff shuttle (seen in VOY: Endgame), it's 9.5 x 5.14 x 2.36.
Can I read the link? The comparison sketches I looked at showed that the nacelles were moved up only very slightly (slightly enough that the whole thing seems faintly ridiculous in aesthetic terms, but hey, in-universe it must have been important for reasons involving warp stresses or something); I don't think the changes look that radical on the ship in the movie, but it is hard to say for certain. EDIT: I think the 8m comes from comparing the drawings on the same set of sketches floating around, but those actually specify 1.3% height increase in writing. The question would then be whether this meant 1.3% of the height, as you would think and as the numbers I posted above assume, or if for some ungodly reason this would mean the nacelle height was increased by 1.3% of the overall length of the ship (the only way I can think to interpret it to get anything close to 8 meters, though it'd be more like 9). Because that seems kinda silly and the nacelle height increase is not really noticeable anyway, I personally take the 1.3% as a height percentage and just assume the sketches are not drawn to scale because the difference would have been visually insignificant at the size of the drawing. That would result in the height I listed above. Anyone have any screenshots from Nemesis that really make it look as if the nacelles were jacked up more than that?
To add to what LCARS 24 posted at the beginning of this thread are some figures, and their published sources, all dimensions in meters. I am not attempting to evaluate their respective qualifications or differences, just merely post the figures from the books for discussion. My apologies if posting information from published sources is considered faux pas or forbidden by BBS rules. I am trying to be all-inclusive to multiple sources so we can nail this down. Mods, if so, feel free to pull the post and advise me accordingly; don't want to run afoul of the rules. "Ships Of The Star Fleet:Volume One Revised", July 1991 Constitution-class (original)...285.9 overall length x 125.6 overall width x 71.5 overall height; primary hull (saucer) 126.8 long x 125.6 wide x 32.8 high; nacelles 153.8 long x 19.2 wide x 18.8 high. 181,000 tons. Constitution-class (refit)...304.8 overall length x 141.7 overall width x 71.3 overall height; primary hull 146.3 long x 141.7 wide x 32.9 high; nacelles 154.8 long x 12.6 wide x 18.3 high. 210,000 tons. NOTE:Constitution-class (refit) for NCC-1701-A is same as regular Con-refit, but nacelles are 155.0 x 13.5 wide x 18.3 high, and 211,500 tons. Avenger-class (Miranda-class)...234.9 overall length x 141.2 overall width x 58.8 overall height; primary hull 178.3 long x 141.2 wide x 32.5 high; nacelles 154.8 long x 12.6 wide x 17.8 high. 150,000 tons. old black Franz Joseph "Starfleet Technical Manual", 1975 Constitution-class (original)...288.6 overall length x 127.1 overall width x 72.6 overall height; primary hull 127.1 diameter; secondary hull 103.6 long x 34.1 diameter; nacelles 153.6 long x 17.3 diameter. 190,000 tons. "Deep Space Nine Technical Manual", November 1998 Deep Space Nine...1451.82 overall diameter x 969.26 overall height; Habitat Ring 579.12 diameter; Core 285.90 diameter (maximum)/59.43 diameter at Ops; Weapon Sail Towers 192.02 high. Could not find weight. Following figures are length, width, height, followed by tonnage. Danube-class...23.1 x 13.7 x 5.4. 158.7 tons. Galaxy-class...642.51 x 463.73 x 195.26. 4,500,000 tons. Nebula-class...442.23 x 318.11 x 130.43. 3,309,000 tons. Excelsior-class...511.25 x 195.64 x 86.76. 2,350,000 tons. Defiant-class...170.68 x 134.1 x 30.1. 355,000 tons. Akira-class...464.43 x 316.67 x 87.43. 3,055,000 tons. Miranda-class...277.76 x 173.98 x 65.23. 655,000 tons. Norway-class...364.77 x 225.61 x 52.48. 622,000 tons. Saber-class...stats are the same as Norway-class, obviously an error. Following the Saber-class were a number of kitbashed ships, but I am trying to stay with known ship classes. Vor'Cha-class...481.32 x 341.76 x 106.87. 2,238,000 tons. Negh'Var-class...682.32 x 470.09 x 136.65. 4,310,000 tons. B'Rel-class...157.76 x 181.54 x 98.54. 236,000 tons. K'T'inga-class...349.54 x 251.76 x 98.41. 760,000 tons. Keldon-class...371.88 x 192.23 x 70.13. 2,230,000 tons. Galor-class...371.88 x 192.23 x 59.00. 1,678,000 tons. Hideki-class...85.78 x 60.14 x 12.43. 120,000 tons. Jem'Hadar battle cruiser...639.75 x 568.44 x 204.97. 4,215,000 tons. Jem'Hadar attack ship...68.32 x 70.02 x 18.32. 2,450 tons. D'Deridex-class...1,041.65 x 772.43 x 285.47. 4,320,000 tons. "Starship Spotter", November 2001. Figures are length, width, height, followed by tonnage. Constitution-class (original)...288.6 x 127.1 x 72.6. 190,000 tons. Constitution-class (refit)...304.8 x 141.7 x 71.3. 210,000 tons. Miranda-class...237.6 x 141.7 x 58.0. 150,000 tons. Nebula-class...465.0 x 467.1 x 140.5. 3,309,000 tons. Galaxy-class...641.0 x 467.1 x 137.5. 4,500,000 tons. Danube-class...23.1 x 13.7 x 5.4. 158.7 tons. Nova-class...165.0 x 81.2 x 31.4. 110,000 tons. Akira-class...464.4 x 316.7 x 87.4. 3,055,000 tons. Defiant-class...119.5 x 90.3 x 25.5. 355,000 tons. Sovereign-class...685.3 x 250.6 x 88.2. 3,205,000 tons. Intrepid-class...344.5 x 132.1 x 64.4. 700,000 tons. Prometheus-class...415.0 x 170.0 x 113.0. 850,000 tons. SpaceDock (ST:TSFS)...4,600 diameter x 6,900 tall. 236,642,306 tons. K'T'inga-class...214.3 x 152.4 x 57.3. 120,000 tons. B'Rel-class...88.0 x 130.0 x 21.7. 46,300 tons. Vor'Cha-class...481.3 x 341.8 x 106.9. 2,238,000 tons. Romulan Bird-of-Prey (TOS)...68.2 x 90.6 x 21.9. 25,000 tons. D'Deridex-class...1,041.7 x 772.4 x 285.5. 4,320,000 tons. Galor-class...229.5 x 118.7 x 38.1. 412,930 tons. Jem'Hadar attack ship...68.3 x 70.02 x 18.3. 2,450 tons. Listed below, by way of comparison, are lengths given by the excellent website Ex Astris Scientia. Please see that website for various discussions regarding ship sizes. Akira-class...440 Ambassador-class...526 Centaur-type...381 Challenger-class...390 Cheyenne-class...362 Constellation-class...310 Constitution-class (original)...289 Constitution-class (refit)...305 Daedalus-class...105 Danube-class...23 Defiant-class...120 Excelsior-class...467 Excelsior-class (Enterprise-B)...469 Freedom-class...430 Galaxy-class...642.5 Intrepid-class...344 Miranda-class...243 Nebula-class (triangular pod)...440 Nebula-class (AWACS-type pod)...465 New Orleans-class...340 Niagara-class...480 Norway-class...355 Nova-class...180 NX-class...225 Oberth-class...150 Olympic-class...320 Prometheus-class...415 Raven-type...90 Saber-class...172 Sovereign-class...685 Sovereign-class (for "Nemesis)...673 Steamrunner-class...355 Sydney-class...235 Yeager-type...330 Delta Flyer...21 Intrepid-class aeroshuttle...27 Argo shuttle...20 Enterprise-E shuttle...16 Federation scout ship...24 Sovereign-class Captain's Yacht...33.5 Borg Cube...3,040 Borg Sphere...450 some, 600 others Breen destroyer...330 Galor-class...481 Keldon-class...481 Hideki-class...98 Ferengi Marauder...366 Jem'Hadar attack ship...95 Jem'Hadar battle cruiser...650 B'Rel-class...110 K'T'inga-class...214 Vor'Cha-class...481 Negh'Var-class...682 no spike, 718 with spike Romulan Bird-of-Prey (TOS)...131 D'Deridex-class...1,200 Romulan science ship...95 Romulan scout ship...89 Valdore-type (Norexan-class?)...604 Scimitar...890 Other items from Ex Astris Scientia... Deep Space Nine...1,097 diameter intended, 1,451 compromised...note that a 120-meter Defiant fits well with the smaller diameter, while a 170m Defiant fits well with the larger diameter. SpaceDock (ST3)...3,800 diameter x 5,500 tall. If anyone else knows of other websites that have solid (or well-reasoned) explanations of ship dimensions, feel free to contribute here.
JNG, I am not sufficently tech-savvy to post links (I know it's probably pathetically easy, but I don't have one of my sarcastic teenagers here to help me), but if you look at the Sovereign article in the Starship Database section of Ex Astris Scientia, at www.ex-astris-scientia.com, they discussed the Nemesis changes there but gave no figures on new height. Also, folks, per the cutaway posters (from 1993 on the Enterprise-D and 1996 on the Enterprise-E)... Galaxy-class...464.25 meters long x 467.0 wide x 137.5 tall, and 397,805 tons (!) Sovereign-class...685 meters long x 250 wide (214 across the nacelles) x 88 tall, and 3,205,000 tons.
You did it The EAS article on Sovereign changes does indeed contain those same sketches under discussion.
Yeah, by accident, not design. If I really knew what I was doing, I'd be able to post a link right to that section.
I copied and pasted this German paragraph into Google's Language Translation webpage... Gradually they surrounded the huge white ship: its elegantly arched, 146 meters wide, Disc primary shell, the curved, like a Schiffssteven Connection Finn secondary to elongated cigar-hull or machinery, and the two 155 meters long, each 31 000-ton main engine nacelles allocated to their slanted, 60 meters long outriggers. The entire length of the ship measured 305 meters, its weight was 190 000 tons.
From "Mr. Scott's Guide To The Enterprise", July 1987, by Shane Johnson... Constitution-class (refit)...990.6 feet long x 460.5 feet wide x 231.7 feet high overall; primary hull 475.4 feet long x 460.5 feet wide x 106.9 feet high; secondary hull 393.2 feet long x 106.9 feet wide x 154.3 feet high; nacelles 503.1 feet long x 40.9 feet wide x 54.9 feet high. Ship has 21 decks.
I thought so, too, but it doesn't appear Mr. Johnson had access to the Star Trek III size chart we have seen. Of course, the materials he probably had access to in the mid-80s weren't anything like we have access to now.
Ah, well as long as I didn't hallucinate it. There are certain things in Mr. Scott's Guide (such as transwarp being a success) that I take with a grain of salt. Perhaps the size figures should be another?
Praetor, there were a number of items in the book that weren't "right", such as the Enterprise returning from the five-year mission in 2212, and the "Whalesong Incident" (ST4) in 2222. But then again, this was written well before the Okudachron... Mr. Scott's guide did have something neat...the port and starboard ventral phasers at the bottom of the secondary hull, as well as the two single-mount phasers above the shuttlebay door. Not sure off the top of my head if even "Starship Spotter" had that.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten the date weirdnesses. I think those phasers were present in Starship Spotter, but I'm not sure.