STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.

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Grade the movie...

  1. A+

    18.8%
  2. A

    20.6%
  3. A-

    13.2%
  4. B+

    11.1%
  5. B

    7.9%
  6. B-

    4.1%
  7. C+

    5.7%
  8. C

    5.0%
  9. C-

    3.5%
  10. D+

    1.5%
  11. D

    1.6%
  12. D-

    1.3%
  13. F

    5.7%
  1. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Did Khan's actions the other two times we saw him really make sense? He beams up Genesis, yet leaves Kirk in the cave even though he really wants to kill him. Did it make sense to send a single guard with Spock?

    Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.
     
  2. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    *bites tongue*
     
  3. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I know that and every other film and movie in existence requires mental gymnastics but that is understandable as it ain't reality, but Star Trek Into Darkness takes this into whole new extremes to the point where it becomes really really distracting, really really obvious and really really annoying.

    It's up there (and goes beyond) with Sisko committing attempted genocide on those Maquis worlds, Picard and the crew just watching as a planet's atmosphere burns and kills the inhabitants while doing nothing about it! So Star Trek has had its muddled moments and occasionally totally destroys its characters with badly thought-out plots and episodes. But STID goes one step further.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Whether the gymnastics it takes are acceptable or not is up to each individual viewer. I, personally, had a blast all four times I saw Into Darkness.

    Is it a perfect movie? No. But it sure is fun to watch.
     
  5. OneBuckFilms

    OneBuckFilms Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This was covered in dialog (someththing like this).

    Khan: "Kirk. Your still alove old friend."

    Kirk: "Still. old friend. Like a poor marksman you keep missing the target."

    Khan: "Perhaps I no longer need to try, Admiral."

    (beams up genesis device).

    David: "They wouldn't dare take it !!!"

    Kirk: "Khan. You have Genesis, but you don't have me. You were going to kill ME khan. You're going to have to come down here. Your going to HAVE to COME DOWN HERE !!!"

    Khan: "I've done far worse that kill you. I've hurt you. I shall leave you as you left me. As you left her. Marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet. Buried alive, buried alive."

    Kirk: "KHAAAAAAAAAANNNN !!!!!"

    (Cut to khan relishing in Kirk's scream and defeat.)

    Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Bullshit.

    The only reason Khan doesn't beam Kirk up and snap his neck is because the script requires it. The whole movie Khan simply couldn't wait to kill Kirk and then right at the end he decides "just kidding!"

     
  7. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But this is NuKhan, so while similar to the Khan of the Prime universe, this movie distorted his traits and attributes. He now really is a superhuman, who does the whole cliched villain gets captured thing and his emotions are now supercharged and electrified like pretty all of the main characters. Which pretty much sacrifices subtle nuances, gravitas and presence for the new Trek Kahn villain. So while Kahn can act and feel threatening, you just have to realise how stupid and convoluted his plan is (and what was his plan after all of that; free his people, start a Klingon/Federation war or both?) and that just really dilutes this character no matter how threatening he can be.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Are you kidding?

    Have you ever seen The Wrath of Khan? Shatner and Montalban chew so much scenery it's unreal. And you know what? It was fun to watch.

    I think some fans have forgotten simply how to have fun watching a movie. They've wrapped themselves so completely in the franchise that any deviation from it is seen as a flaw.
     
  9. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This is a wider problem of them making the transporters too universally useful. If they had maintained the restriction that you could only beam someone up with a clear, attuned, communicator signal adjacent to their person then Khan would not be able to beam any Enterprise crew up. That doesn't hold up so well in TWoK, since Kirk picks up Chekov's communicator to shout at Khan though... :vulcan:
     
  10. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nah I haven't seen TWOK, but people were talking up this the new Kahn and for a villain he was average, he would have been better if the plot were a little more watertight. Even if I had seen TWOK I wouldn't really care if there was any deviation, it's a new universe so different things are going to happen. When I watched STID I went from considering it Star Trek to thinking it to be a really funny comedy given how laughably bad and convulted it all was, and then finally realising this was just a bad movie period.

    STID has nothing to offer if you start thinking about it and if you could detach yourself from the incessant action scenes and weird plot twists whilst watching it. In that way STID is a very weird film, it has no concept of pacing, it seems to shy away from quiet moments and thoughtful inflection and to me that is the clearest sign yet that JJ Abrams knew this story was a pile of convoluted garbage that would not hold up. So he had to distract, bamboozle and wow everyone with soap opera moments, action sequence after action sequence and plot twists that made no real sense. STID is a decent action film, but it so fragmented and there is nothing truly memorable (aside from Carol in her underwear) or thought-provoking.

    The flaws are so numerous and so obvious I'm surprised so many people overlook them (even the critics). So maybe I'm out of the loop when it comes to watching new films, or perhaps every ones standards have reached rock bottom. So what was considered a stupid movie twenty years ago is now considered deep, thought-provoking and intelligent.

    It's a real mystery to me why so many enjoy STID, it's such a mystery that I really do need it spelt out to me concerning what exactly is so great and amazing about this film. Honest to God I really do not see it!
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them. :techman:
     
  12. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have and there were stupid moments in many of the movies, but with most of them you could explain them away. And plot holes aside the characterization and depth was just better full stop, so even ignoring the plot holes what makes STID so great when the characters are all cartoon and extreme versions of the TOS ones, and the universe is a really LITERAL interpretation of the prime one.

    Insurrection and Nemesis were riddled with problems, but even they in my opinion far outshine this movie. So what has STID got when you can't really apply logic to this film?

    I mean if our main characters (Kirk, Spock and Kahn) really have so much depth, could anyone describe these characters, their motivations, history and attributes in more than 1000 words? I mean you could do that with all the important characters in the Trek series (heck even some of the secondary ones in DS9!), and a good film (any good film) is such that you can write an awful lot about the important characters if they have depth or the plot has many layers to it (like Inception for instance).
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    This pretty much ends the discussion. :guffaw:

    Thread on The Wrath of Khan:

    http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=216757
     
  14. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Will he then be allowed to not like STID?
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Why do you get testy when people defend this film? Anyone can like or dislike any film they chose. When they put their reasons up on a public message board, then they are inviting folks to discuss those reasons.
     
  16. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wasn't talking about TWOK I was talking about STID.
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    I know which movie you were talking about. I just thought maybe you should go see how many holes and bits of illogic the fans of this board were able to spot in The Wrath of Khan.
     
  18. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Urgh, I don't even agree with half of what he's saying, but why should he? What's the best that can happen?

    He doesn't find any but is then continually told he's wrong.

    Or he finds a bunch and then ends up disliking both films.

    Brilliant, well done.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Premium Member

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    Even with the plot "difficulties", I've loved the movie for thirty years. Why can't a person love something that's flawed?
     
  20. Belz...

    Belz... Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well your comments in this thread indicate that you don't.

    Ever heard of the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back" ?

    So it's realistic, then.

    Sure it does. We've discussed that at length.

    By what metric ?

    You might have missed it in the first movie, but he had a very, very different childhood from Prime Kirk.

    Then I'll say this for him, he's consistent.

    Yeah but we're talking about Odo, here. :) Vulcans have much more violent emotions than humans.

    How would the Klingons know Starfleet was even there ? Plausible deniability.

    Oh, I wish people would stop making that parallel. The new Trek movies are NOTHING like Star Wars. Action doesn't equal Star Wars.

    Actually it almost withered away and died for the reverse reason.

    It felt like TOS, actually. Quite a bit.

    Please do not confuse your appreciation for a movie with its level of success. The box office revenues disagree with you.

    Starfleet has always felt like the military, and they've had caps before. They just never wore them. Hell, there was one in the very first pilot.