Hi, I wasn't sure where to post this question so I guess i'll try here. Anyway a really old Angel question: Does anyone know why Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia) did not come back for Angel season 5? (I mean the whole season 5, I know she did come back for 1 episode). I vaugely remember something about bad blood between her and the writers or something...if anyone can please clear this up. I searched the web and couldn't find anything. Wikipedia says "controversy of her unexplained removal from the show". Could anyone please clear this up? thanks.
I could have sworn that the studio basically told the show that they must have Spike and they couldn't afford to keep Carpenter.
It goes like this: The original plan for season four was to have Cordelia as the big bad. Then Charisma got pregnant and the writers were forced to work around it, which lead to the Jasmine storyline. This created some tension between the higher ups and Charisma, and she was written out of the show.
I love the first 3 seasons of Angel and was disappointed with whole pregnant Cordy stuff. I kind of wish they had simply hid it during the episodes (like some actresses on other shows do) or had Charisma leave for a while. While the last two seasons were good it could have been much better.
I've heard 3 conflicting stories: 1.) Carpenter left of her own accord to focus on raising her newborn child that year. 2.) Carpenter (and Vincent Karthaiser) were written off the show because of budget issues in Season 5, like adding Spike and building all those new Wolfram & Hart office sets. 3.) Carpenter & the writers had some major creative differences over how to proceed with her character in Season 5. One rumor said that she just suddenly would have reappeared on the cliff where she was originally going to meet Angel in "Tomorrow" with absolutely no memory of anything that had happened in Season 4. Whatever the reason, I'm glad she wasn't in Season 5. Cordelia was great in Seasons 1-3 but Season 4 had dragged her through so much muck that I think only a lengthy absence from the show could have really rehabilitated her. Hell, I don't think she had been the same ever since she came back from that trip with Groo in Season 3.
Honestly, I heard she punched Joss, knocked him on his ass after some disagreement about something. It's quite freaky seeing those wolfram Hart sets still being used on Eli Stone. They're sure getting their money's use out of them. What else have they been used in?
Yet another reason I love her. I hope it's true. That pompous creep deserves it. I think the reason the show did so well was because Whedon had minimal involvement with it as it was Minear's and Greenwalt's baby. Yeah I heard a lot of bullshit "Official Stories" but the one that kept coming back was that she got pregnant and Whedon flipped a lid and fired her for it. Charisma, being the classy chick she is, still won't talk about it. Probably because she knows what a fairly big name in Hollywood he is and it's bad karma to trash anyone because they might have friends who doing the hiring some where else.
If there was bad blood, which I'm not ruling out, why did she volunteer come in and do the season 4 finale like, just days after giving birth when a body double or other tactic could easily have been used? I'm was also sad to hear that her appearance in the 100th episode was as a second choice, I'll always enjoy that episode because of how it was the "old Cordy" that we loved pre season 4, and it was a heartbreaking send off really well done in my opinion.
It didn't "do so well" - that's why the network demanded that Marsters be brought aboard and still cancelled it in season 5. Whatever Carpenter's reason for leaving, it did not turn out to be a great career move. There are only two real reasons that people can dislike Whedon - given that so few of his detractors know him personally - they don't like his writing (particularly his humor) or they somehow resent the fact that he's one of the most talented and entertaining writers in the business.
But hey, that's Marsters for you. Destroying one show anyone can do. Destroying two, well that takes talent. Like she had a choice in the matter. I don't like him because he's a nihilistic turd with a rape fetish.
Really? Wow. I have no idea how that would even work really. The episode was so perfect as Cordelia's return/farewell episode. They wouldn't have had nearly such poignancy if it had been Buffy instead. Plus, I think that Buffy brings out very different aspects of Angel's personality than Cordelia does. "You're Welcome" with Buffy would have been an incredibly different pep talk. Heck, in retrospect, I'm glad that you never actually get to see Buffy in "The Girl in Question." It's so much funnier and so much more to the point when it's just Angel & Spike talking about her. Because, really, it's about Angel & Spike; Buffy is merely a catalyst. But Buffy in "You're Welcome" is kinda like that rumor I'd heard that Seven of Nine was originally going to be in Star Trek: Nemesis but Jeri Ryan was unavailable, so they replaced her with Admiral Janeway.
I completely agree with you, Buffy wouldn't have worked. Cordy was perfect, and that episode was a masterpiece.
So, one of the few avowed feminists in Hollywood has a rape fetish? You're gonna have to present your case a little better than that. (Also, I think he has described himself as an existentialist, not a nihilist.)
He throws out words like "feminist" and "existentialist" without even knowing what they mean. He just wants the fans to like him more. No, he's totally nihilistic. Everything is pain and misery and everyone betrays everyone and everyone is really alone and true love is a lie. What a little emo-bitch. I'm surprised everyone doesn't just cut themselves in his shows. And the glorification of rape is a big part of his writing. Partly allegory. Partly symbolic. But all glorification. After the Spike/Buffy rape scene there were ALOT of outraged fans with tons of websites dedicated to venting their outrage and anger. Partly because of what actually happened. But mostly because they chose to focus on the rapist and his feelings and how misunderstood he is. Infact it started an internet catchphrase - "Hug your rapist".
You do know he didn't write that episode, and it was Marti Noxon, a woman, who wrote it and was running the show at that point, right?
^Correct. And Marti wrote it based on a real-life experience where she herself tried to get a boyfriend to stay with her by forcing herself on him. She reversed the male/female parts for that scene. The director and actors took her written scene and went much further than she'd intended by making it an attempted rape. Marti hadn't intended that, and Joss had nothing to do with it.
And in the Whedon-written 8th season Buffy comic, it turns out that wasn't really buffy in that night club, but one of her many decoys salted around the world to confuse those who would bring her slayer corps down.
It actually was doing fairly well at the time it was canceled. Not outstanding, of course, but not bad. The justification given for the action was some of the typical network BS about refreshing their lineup. Also, they had another vampire show they wanted to try out (which didn't go anywhere).