Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread True, that is a good point. But I personally saw that part of the scene in terms of Dax's annoyance with Bashir's inability to move on with his life. Whether its repeating descriptions given of the newly joined Ezri Dax when describing the current Ezri Dax (and worse, given by another woman who he doesn't seem to realize might have changed or grown in the years since that moment), or whether it's more "playing spy like you did before", it seemed to me that what annoyed Dax was the sense that Bashir was still trapped in his old mindsets. She had moved on and changed, as had everyone else...except Bashir. As you say, though, each to their own Ok, more notes tomorrow!
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Well--if you're interested, I've written a good amount of Ezri in the FanFic forum, set around this time period. Two tales (three, if you count the new one I've just posted) have her going through some intense internal conflict, I'd say. They're all labeled with the subtitle "A Tale of Captain Ezri Dax".... (Shameless plug. Sorry, folks....)
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Finished the novel on Thursday night. Just laid on the couch and went through the last 100 pages or so in one sitting (which I normally don't do). I found the plot and pacing to be pretty good. I'm always a sucker for cool spy/action/thriller stuff and I think that David Mack did a good job at keeping the story moving forward and interesting. The insights into the Breen are really the most important parts of this book. The revelations about their species and culture is completely different than what I would have assumed - I'm a little bummed in some regards, but the author was able to create an identity for the Breen that makes sense. I liked Bashir a lot in the story, but I was a little underwhelmed with the rest of the characters. Ezri is fine here, but I feel like she should have had a little more to do and I would have appreciated a little more insight into her feelings/relationship with Bashir. I know they broke off their romance in the DS9 relaunch, but if I remember correctly, they were still on good terms with one another. They seem really distant and a little unfriendly towards one another in this book. What happened? Sarina Douglas is a little too much of a super-spy, but it's hard to argue about the development of a barely-established guest star who only appeared in, what, 2 episodes? When we last saw her, she was just "waking up" as an individual so she probably experienced a lot and changed a lot over the years. I honestly didn't buy the Sarina/Bashir romance, though. He barely knew the girl and yet he considers her "the one that got away"? Really? His feelings for Sarina were deeper than those for Ezri? Meh... I don't buy it. Section 31 again? Ugh... unnecessary. Could have done without that little bit at the end. Overall, it was a fun and entertaining read. It could have had a little more substance and character, but I still enjoyed it.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Needless to say...I agree 1000%. And I agree about the spoiler...somehow, while I'm more sympathetic to The Bureau than most...still, if I were Julian (if I knew, of course), I'd be groaning, "Can't you people just LEAVE ME ALONE???"
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread 1. No, we have the fact that Vaughn had obtained control of the Holoship from Section 31, so his "belief" is backed up by physical evidence. 2. Vaughn is an expert on Section 31; he's authoritative. If he says they did it, they did it. I only remember Admiral Dougherty claiming to be acting on orders from the Federation Council. To what line of Riker's are you referring? And now you're creatively re-interpreting authorial intent about what Section 31 did or did not do in order to make them less morally objectionable. The conclusion that Section 31 arranged the New Beijing Massacre may not hold up in a court of law, but it's a completely reasonable hypothesis -- 'cause, really, the idea that a high-ranking Section 31 operative would just happen to be on New Beijing, trying to recruit a genetically engineered doctor into the Bureau, when the one thing that finally drives that doctor to join Thirty-One finally happens -- and event that was completely unexpected -- just happens to occur, is beyond implausible. Well, yeah, that's the point of the novel: That Bashir has allowed his feelings for Sarina (and, indeed, his loneliness prior to her return to his life) to drive him to do things he would never otherwise do in order to "earn" her love. That he is betraying himself because of his need for love. Zero Sum Game is the story of how a man allows himself to become corrupted. No. There's still the fact that Bashir's actions were undertaken within the context of the Federation's social contract. He acted on orders from the democratically-elected Federation government, and remained accountable to Federation authorities. Section 31, by contrast, is accountable to no one and operates outside of the social contract. I seem to remember "Chrysalis" spanning at least a month or two. Which, no, is not enough time for a reasonable person to conclude that she's his One True Love Who Was Meant To Be -- but, there again, I don't think Julian was in an emotionally stable frame of mind when the story began. And to be fair, emotionally traumatic events -- such as the events of this novel -- can drive people to enter relationships with much more emotional intensity than they normally would. That was the impression I got. And, frankly, I'm not entirely persuaded there's a moral difference between blowing up a shipyard full of unarmed civilians and shooting a few. But either way, I got the impression that Julian honestly didn't know that the guys in the command center were unarmed when he did the deed -- he just went in and shot them before he had enough time to actually assess the situation (and before any of them had the chance to alert security). I hadn't realized that the actress who played Sarina had had such a successful career -- thanks for that tip-off! You know, I read that and thought that President Bacco seemed a bit different this time around. She seemed much darker, much more cynical than we've previously seen her. "How do we spin this for the media?," "I've got to bullshit the Federation Council," etc. Whereas in Articles of the Federation, she'd seemed much more upbeat and idealistic. There again, one could probably argue that she's never had to issue any truly morally ambiguous orders before. Throughout Articles of the Federation, her options were never really immoral -- she was consistently able to take actions that were morally unobjectionable. Same thing in Destiny -- even when she offered a blanket pardon if Picard committed any crimes in defeating the Borg, the situation was so desperate that it's understandable. But her orders here are much darker, much more realpolitik, so to speak. She has to know that giving the order to destroy the Breen prototype will almost inevitably lead to the deaths of civilians and innocent people -- yet, believing that the costs of not issuing such an order would be greater, she does it anyway. She's in a much darker position than she was in in prior novels. "Again?" It's been years since they played a prominent role in a novel other than in the ENT Relaunch. And it's been almost a decade since the Star Trek: Section 31 miniseries set things up for a confrontation between Section 31 and Our Heroes in DS9, VOY, TNG, etc., which still hasn't happened yet. I'd argue it's not so much, "Section 31? Again?" as it is, "Section 31? About time!" You're remembering incorrectly. They broke up in Trill: Unjoined and it was very awkward and uncomfortable between them afterwords. I do. His feelings for Ezri always had more to do with his feelings for Jadzia than for the woman he was actually with.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread The plan to insert the pair into Breen territory is a good one. It’s nice to see Starfleet using its technical expertise, demonstrating the inventive qualities we’d expect them to. The Breen patrol crew are rather underwhelmed by their guests, aren’t they? They pick up a pair of privateers, the commander says “here’s quarters, don’t cause trouble” and then they drop them off on Salavat. It makes me wonder how exactly the Breen view people like those Bashir and Sarina are impersonating. What’s the status of privateers in the eyes of Militia folk? Thanks to the Kukalaka conversation, I now have a pleasing image of a Breen carrying a teddy bear. Dax taking the initiative is great; what’s also great is that we now cut back to the Palais and confront the fallout. I’m all for starship captains “boldly going” - it’s a necessary part of Trek – but I don’t like it when the captains are presented as Quite Simply Right. Showing that Dax’s initiative in the field is in uneasy tension with the needs of the politicians back home makes for a much more satisfying portrayal. It’s good to see the Federation councillors. It’s a nice little scene because it calls to mind the chapter in “A Time to Heal” where Zife is confronted by his critics. We now see a similar tension between the president and prominent councillors, but played differently. Bacco's being told she’s walking a dangerous line but is standing firm convinced she can balance, while Zife tried to avoid the issue entirely by shaming his critics (oh the Tezwanity! ) while actually camping out on the far side of the line. Bacco won't do a Zife, but has she misjudged her ability to walk the line effectively? I also like how Gleer comes across here as less of an irritating bore in love with his own voice and more of a highly principled being who truly believes in the Federation’s ideals. The novel is really muddying things nicely, in a low-key but much appreciated way. Sorry to state the blindingly obvious, but this chapter really drives home how hard Bacco’s job is, particularly now. Her hard stance on the Pact seems to be causing friction; a reminder that being a good president doesn’t mean she’s necessarily right, or probably more accurately doesn’t mean she’s the only one who’s right. The same acknowledgement of the complexities we're being given with Dax. Good good. More insights into the Breen, including a ritualistic exchange: “Night and silence protect you”/“may darkness bring you fortune”. Hmmm, were the founding Breen nocturnally inclined or is this simply an outgrowth of their cultural aversion to flaunting your identity. Is it both? How did they develop this obsession with being secretive? Replacing “Breen are mysterious” with “Breen are concerned with remaining mysterious” is a reasonable position to take, but naturally it’s raising even more questions. We soon discover the Breen prefer to build underground too. Again, an outgrowth of a culture that’s decided concealment is essential or a reflection of the founding Breen’s habits? Is the desire to hide ideological alone or instinctive on some level, for at least some of the species? Once more, the Breen = cold assumption is torn to shreds; attention is drawn to the heat of the subterranean city. I wonder if the Breen ever met the Watraii? That’s an amusing thought - Watraii all look similar due to low genetic diversity and they hide their features out of a cultural shame at wearing the face of the “murderer race”. Breen are apparently most certainly not all the same but wear identical suits to hide individuality. Totally random thoughts there, but I noted them down anyway. Bashir running into a door made me laugh. The Breen are quite trigger-happy here, aren’t they? Is crime or dissent a big problem or do they know they’ve been infiltrated by outsiders? The police reaction seems disproportionate if all these two are doing is acting a bit suspicious then running away. A little put out by that chapter. It was a bit of action to speed things along and offer a change of pace, and as always with Mack’s action scenes it worked well enough, but I found it hard to accept they could simply slip away after blowing up a train. I suppose the chapter’s end does hint that Sarina is more committed to this sort of lifestyle than she first appeared – she’s very professional and pragmatic. The whole business of playing around on the underground was a bit hard to swallow though.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Indeed. Well, as I said, she's definitely (to me at least) recognisibly the same character, but placing that character in the current situation, subject to these circumstances, results in her making a somewhat different impression. Her light is being refracted a bit differently and some of her character traits now come across a bit darker, more troubling. And the scene with the councillors seems to demonstrate that the "darker" characterization is deliberate. We're certainly seeing Bacco balancing on the line here, and I think it's supposed to provoke a little discomfort.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Ah, Thot Keer! Good. Again, I really like this character, for reasons I can't quite explain. Perhaps it’s just the contrast with the expected exoticism, but he’s really working for me. He’s just a man doing his job, with a sense of pride in his work and in service to his people, but nothing fanatical or abnormally powerful. Interesting that a "bog-standard" character should have such an effect on me. As I say, maybe it's my delight at finding something so ordinary under that exotic helmet. Our second Breen POV character, Chot Nar. Like Keer, she comes across very “normal” and familiar. She’s going about her business, thinking about work shifts and schedules and how she appears to her colleagues. A nice explanation of how Breen commerce, state intelligence services and AI technology intersect. It’s also another fascinating detail about Breen society and the Breen mindset; identifying people by commercial history rather than any truly personable characteristic. Measuring someone by the impression they make on society while screening the person themselves out of consideration. It also reinforces the fact that Breen are not Borg; they certainly aren’t homogenous and indistinctive, they just pretend to be. The first real “villain” of the piece shows up next - a Romulan commander named Marius. He doesn’t approve of the Pact, being a classic Romulan Supremacist. It’s fuelling my desire to read Rough Beasts of Empire; oddly, while exploring lesser-known races is one of this series’ biggest appeals for me, the Pact culture I might be most interested in is the Romulans, about whom we know the most. Marius is, it seems, the Pact equivalent of Dax (no, sorry, forget about lesser races, he’s the Romulan equivalent of Dax ). By which I mean he’s bold, takes the initiative, and potentially causes headaches for the government and observers back home. He seems to have been set up here as Dax's enemy counterpart; how large a role is he going to play, then? Amusingly, Chot Nar is revealed to be not a blob of ammonia or a tiny ice spider or an arctic wolf but a pretty standard humanoid woman. On some level I’m disappointed, but on another I’m quite delighted. Breen it seems, are not only overly concerned with hiding their identity, but actively frightened of diversity because of its potential to lead to bias. Interesting. I’ve mentioned before how the balance between individual and collective identities is an issue explored so frequently in Trek lit, in many inventive ways. Zero Sum Game adds a welcome new dimension to it. Breen are inclusive and make use of multiple species’ innate talents, but they actually fear their own diversity because one of its potential consequences – bias – is considered too powerful an evil, its spectre overshadowing any other effects. I usually like to avoid politics when posting on the BBS (Thot Keer is a wise man ) but I can’t help but be reminded of a lot of British politicians, who promote “diversity” but are actually (so I think) frightened of it. Their inclusive policies don’t celebrate diversity at all - they act to quash it in favour of bland inclusiveness, largely because they fear conflict. In other words, one of the potential consequences of diversity, which can be destructive when taken to extremes or coupled with hate and fear, but is not inherently so, is feared so greatly that the politicians become self-contradictory over it. They use rhetoric of diversity to justify a homogenous inclusiveness, but the last thing they want is to truly see diversity because the spectre of potential conflict rides in with it. The Breen seem to have knowingly and purposely created a society that works as an extreme form of this tendency; they’re a multi-race confederacy, drawing upon a diverse populace, but they also think their own diversity is a disease to be controlled or cured somehow, lest it lead to the great evil of bias. This is very interesting. Okay, so this scene with Nar is mostly just one long exposition dump for “Fun Facts About Breen”, but we readers were so eager to get those facts we can hardly complain, can we? This is what we wanted. And the chapter did add another layer onto the plot at its end – Nar is now entertaining the belief that Bashir and Sarina can help the local dissidents gain asylum in the UFP. Keer is frustrated; he's used to working for the Confederacy, not the Pact. I wonder if this general concept – local patriotic worker frustrated by the demands of the new coalition - will repeat in the other three Typhon Pact novels? That would be a nice touch. It’s another interesting wrinkle to the new galactic order – a reminder that this has happened very fast, and even those right in the middle of it haven’t had time to fully adapt. Keer’s dilemma is actually my favourite part of the novel so far. Watching our heroes bring his dreams and his shipyard crashing down isn’t going to be fun. Well done, Mr. Mack, you’ve made a random Breen shipyard manager the tragic heart of the story. That’s quite impressive. Ah, the old “cloaked Klingon backup” trick. A classic nod to TNG’s “The Defector” (which Dax acknowledges). It seems I was right about Marius – he’s going to be the Tomalak to her Picard. Dax’s subplot just became considerably more interesting.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Actually, the conflict between Bacco and Gleer felt like one more stick being thrown on the fire that is set to flame up in Paths of Disharmony. That is supposed to be a very political novel, and it would make storytelling sense to have the Federation Council's senior members there. Ditto with Tezerene.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread I'm terrified Andor's going to pull out and that'll be the big shock of the series. Seriously.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread I guess I'm just a little irritated that the only storylines anyone bothers to tell with Bashir involve either his genetically-enhanced DNA or Section 31. Apparently, he's not allowed to evolve and move on to other things. Bashir likes to play secret agent in the holsuite, but I think that ZSG proves that he's not interested in doing it in the real world. It goes completely against his ethics and morals as a doctor. He killed people and he absolutely hated himself for it. I'd rather not have Section 31 keep trying to corrupt/recruit him.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread I don't think that's a fair assessment of the character's treatment in the post-finale novels at all. The Bashir/Ezri arc was very important -- his was one of the pivotal roles in the Trill arc as a result. Yes, the genetic engineering and Section 31 arcs are recurring. But there's really only been one other Section 31/Bashir story in the Relaunch -- Section 31: Abyss. And since it's an unresolved plot, you can't just leave it dangling. It needs resolution. If you do a story about the first time Bashir really allows himself to become corrupt, that moves the story forward and closer to resolution. Yes, the genetic engineering thing has played an important role in Cathedral, but it's a much less prominent part of Zero Sum Game. And that's also a really important part of his character that hasn't really been fully explored. And, no, you can't just "leave it behind." It's a fundamental part of his background and his character. You might as well complain that they do too many stories about the fact that he's male and why can't he leave that behind and evolve and move on. But they're going to. That's a given. They want him because he's beyond their control. And now, he's started to give in.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread ^Come to think of it...the fact that a man as vehemently anti-31 as Julian Bashir keeps finding himself becoming more and more like one of "those people" should tell us all something about this kind of "idealism".... I don't buy that for a moment--regardless of what Ezri said. Julian's interaction with her was always a LOT different than his interaction with Jadzia. Indeed...Ezri's exchange with Julian in "Afterimage" effectively destroyes any concept of his "picking up where they left off". It was Worf who saw her as a second Jadzia (his line in "Till Death...") "The Federation Council has ordered a halt to the Ba'ku relocation...while they conduct a top-level review." To be frank...it's not that hard to imagine a Federation Council that has "lost its way". To say that everything "dark" in the Federation government is conveniently all Section 31's fault is, frankly, absurd and naive. Sisko, for example, was not acting on orders from 31 in "In The Pale Moonlight". Frankly, when Vaughn told Bashir that it was 31 behind Dougherty, you would not believe my internal groan--similar to the one in response to the "explanation" in Cloak for why Starfleet had Kirk and Spock "sneak around" to steal the cloaking device (it was Section 31, and they duped Kirk!).
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Okay, these commentaries are starting to get painfully long-winded. Let's just say before this series came out, I was looking forward to seeing more of DS9 in the post-Nemesis/Destiny/Typhon Pact with the relaunch series stuck in 2377. But now I'm wishing more of a filling in of the blanks. Where has Kira gone? What led Vaughn to his deathbed after a Borg invasion that made the Dominion War look like a bar brawl? And I would have to imagine Sarina's first dealings with a Section 31 recruiter had to have taken a path similar to dialogue in my latest fan-fiction stories. (btw, I was intentionally vague on whether or not this was the same Cole who sent Bashir on the Sindorin mission)
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread I'd say so...and if we're not careful, it'll be another case where a Clash Of The Titians will take over the thread and cause the mods to close it. *sigh* Dittos on that. You know...I would actually imagine her dealings with them actually started out as something similar to Bahshir's situation here. Namely...she falls in love with someone, who turns out to be a 31 agent. She follows him into the Bureau...and he eventually dies, or something....
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Rush--you need to edit out that fanfic quote. I don't think it's allowed here.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread My quote of the other guy's quote? Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.... Fixed!
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Not really. As L'Haan said on the final page, Julian's corruption has more to do with his all-consuming need for love than it does with anything else. Most people have a weakness -- a psychological need which they will bend or even break their own moral system in order to meet. Julian's is his need to love and be loved. I think they both did. That doesn't contradict the idea that it was a Section 31 operation at all. It's perfectly plausible that they'd order a top-level review if they got wind that a rogue admiral was issuing illegal orders in their name without their knowledge. Yes -- which is why, for instance, the morally ambiguous mission of Zero Sum Game -- I mean, backstabbing the Breen dissident movement, killing numerous Breen civilians? that's a pretty dark and morally questionable set of choices -- was never depicted as a Section 31 operation, even if one if their operatives was part of that mission. It was very clearly ordered from the President herself. And the novel's characters have a lot of dark ruminations about other acts of morally questionable espionage the Federation has engaged in. I don't think that the point there was that Cloak was "explaining" why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk and Spock (not Picard ) to steal a Romulan cloaking device. The point there was to tell an interesting espionage-themed Section 31 story; the idea was not, "Starfleet would never steal a cloaking device unless Section 31 tricked them into doing it!," but, rather, "Well, they did this. Why not have a TOS Section 31 story tie into the most traditionally espionage-themed episode of TOS?" * * * As far as what led Sarina into Section 31 -- who knows? I'm more interested in what her current state of mind is. Does she actually care about Julian the way she claims to? Is this a case of, "I'll get to be with a guy I care about, and maybe even fall in love with him, and I'll get to lead him into realizing that Section 31 isn't so bad?" Or is it much more cynical -- an absence of real feelings on her end, with only manipulation as her goal?
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread Yes, perhaps...but I am not convinced that Julian's integrity is quite so "bendable" and relativistic, considering his characterization on the show (to say nothing of his contempt for Amiral Ross's decision in "Inter Arna..."), that he would so willingly and quickly discard it for His Girl--who, again, he doesn't really know that well. (Also...I didn't think "Chrysallis" spans a month. I had thought it was a week, at most--but perhaps I've forgotten a line or something, to that effect?) Again, Sci...Ezri and Julian's interaction with each other was FAR different than Julian and Jadzia--even long before they started to become involved. I seriously doubt that "second Jadzia" theory. As Julian was quick to note to Quark, "It's not the same woman!" Perhaps...but I think that could be argued either way. Again...it's not entirely clear where Vaughn got the ship from. He just said that he and others were "in the know", I believe. (To which I replied, "Oh, really--and just who might you be, to say things like that? Show me your facts, Vaughn, not theories due to second-hand evidence and hearsay.") About time, too. Sorry. Unintentional "Bidenism/Bushism" (trying to be bipartisan with that ) there. Fixed it. As I recall, the story emphasized that Admiral Cartwright was the one who ordered Kirk and Co. to go on that mission. Kirk's reflections in the end strongly imply that Cartwright was doing it all because he's with The Bureau--and that from now on, Kirk would be sure to question orders like that.... Well, to be honest, her motives would be an excellent look into her character--therefore, her current state of mind. Her reasons for joining Section 31 in the past should help us define what she does, and what she will do. Well, as I said in an earlier post, I predict that either way, her relationship with him won't last--he will, upon realizing the truth, see Sarina as using him and manipulating him--and any progress Director L'Hann hoped to make in bringing him into The Bureau will be lost. Frankly...I don't know what L'Hann is thinking. There is no way Julian will accept this kind of manipulation of him as necessary--he will not join Section 31 in this manner. BTW...it's actually amusing how L'Hann scoffs at Sloan's percieved faliure. Honestly...Sloan's methods in "Inter Arna" were far more effective than L'Hann's will prove to be. That caused him to do some soul-searching at the very end. L'Hann's method will just make him mad--no matter how far he has gone.
Re: Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game Review thread ^ Or is she a step ahead of Section 31 and pulling in Bashir to be her ally against them? Or is she really an android replica of Sarina? Or is she actually a changeling? Or has Section 31 been co-opted by the Obsidian Order? One could play these games all day....