Watchmen 2?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Admiral_Young, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Voldemort! Voldemort! Voldemort! ;)
     
  2. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Then why is everyone so sensitive about it? :cool:
     
  3. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Strikes Again sucked and mostly is ignored...the same will happen to these prequels if they suck as well, I don't see how they would effect "Watchmen" in any way. It's not like the book is being altered or anything. This isn't DC pulling a Lucas and having artists and writers include new scenes or dialogue in the original graphic novel. This is more like DC pulling a Lucas and doing prequels! :)
     
  4. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Until DC comes out with Absolute Watchmen which collects everything as if it's one nice giant saga, prequels, sequels, interquels and all!
     
  5. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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  6. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah Bleeding Cool brought that up as well.
     
  7. DarthPipes

    DarthPipes Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I just can't help but think nothing good will come out of this. It will likely turn out to be forgettable rathern than memorable. Some stories don't need more stories. Since they're going to do it anyway, they better do a damn good job. If you're going to do Watchmen again, make it memorable. But I just don't see it turning out that way.
     
  8. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They're not doing Watchmen again though, they're revisiting parts of the past, with impressive creative teams. These aren't just any old talent they're putting on this...if it were I would understand some of the dismissive attitude but there are some giants in the industry involved in this.
     
  9. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This is what JMS just posted on his fan page...sorry for the length.

    Rather than answer the questions about Watchmen piecemeal in separate topics, I figured I’d address the key ones here, all in one place.

    Let me start out by tackling head-on the most frequent question: “how would you feel if Babylon 5 was being done without your permission?” It’s a fair question, and it needs to be fairly answered...but it has to be an honest comparison, apples to apples, not apples to pomegranates.

    First, we have to take the word “permission” off the table. Warner Bros. owns Babylon 5 lock, stock and phased-plasma guns, just as DC owns the Watchmen characters. DC wasn’t making creator-owned deals back in the 80s. Moreover, they were variations on characters that had been previously created for the Charleton Comics universe. Main point is: neither of us owns these characters in any significant legal way. Consequently, neither company needs our permission to do anything.

    But I get that we’re talking about the emotional aspect of all this, not the legal stuff, which is pretty cut and dry. So again: apples to apples.

    How would I feel if Babylon 5 were being made and I were shut out of anything to do with it, despite my desire to be involved? I’d feel pretty crummy about it. But as it happens, that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation in any way, manner, shape or form.

    If at any point in the last 25 years, Alan had said, “you know, there’s a Watchmen story I’d like to tell,” there’s no question that DC would have given him both the freedom to tell that story and a check big enough to dim the lights at their offices for a week. And there were frequent overtures for him to do just that. In 2005, DC actually offered to give him ownership of the characters if he’d come back to do more stories with them.

    They wanted his involvement, solicited his involvement, would have been thrilled at his involvement. He declined at every point. Fair enough. It’s his choice, and it’s his right to make it.

    So now – apples to apples – let’s make the B5 comparison. Let’s say Warner Bros. came to me and said, “we want to do more Babylon 5, and we want you to run the whole thing. We’ll pay you anything you want, give you a proper budget, and you will have complete creative freedom.” (Actually, they made that offer last year, and I said yes enthusiastically, because I love these characters and that universe. At the eleventh hour the distribution system they had been trying to put together fell apart, and so did this, but let’s stick to the subject, shall we?)

    So let’s say that Warners makes that offer, and I said, “No, I don’t want it, take your accursed money, your big budget and your complete creative freedom and begone, get thee behind me Satan!” Let’s say they came back and said “Okay, then how about we pay you vast sums of money just to consult? How about that?”

    “No,” let’s say I cried, “no, no, a thousand times no.”

    “How about just to meet with us? Just for an hour?”

    “No, absolutely not, nuh-uh, no way, not a chance.”

    “What if we sweeten the deal? What if we offer to give you full ownership of Babylon 5, legally and contractually, so you own it? How about that?”

    “Fie, I tell you, fie!”

    Well, where does that leave us?

    If Warners offered me creative freedom, money and a budget to do the show the way I wanted, up to and including my completely owning the show, and I said no to that deal, and if after Warners waited TWENTY FIVE YEARS for me to change my mind they finally decided to go ahead and make B5 without me...then I would have absolutely zero right to complain about it. Because it was my choice to remove myself from the process, it wasn’t something foisted upon me by anybody else.

    And frankly, and I’m only talking about me here, if I made that choice, I would be an idiot. Because I love those characters and that universe, and would greatly enjoy the chance to play with them again. Every TV writer in town would show up at my door just to personally kick the crap out of me, and they'd be right to do it.

    On to the next topic.

    “These were one-off characters, they were never intended to be used again.” A really good point whose only problem is that it’s not actually true. That was certainly never DC’s perception of the characters, and Alan himself floated an idea about doing a Minutemen prequel back in 1985.

    Alan didn’t walk away from Watchmen for artistic reasons, he walked away over contract language regarding ownership issues. It was a contract dispute. In time that morphed into something else, but that was not what happened at the time.

    “These characters are sacred, nobody else should write them.”

    If we’re going to talk about the sanctity of characters, let me point to an observation I made in one of the interviews:

    “Alan has spent most of the last decade writing some very, very good stories about characters created by other writers, including Alice (from Wonderland), Dorothy (from Oz), Wendy (from Peter Pan), as well as Captain Nemo, the Invisible Man, Jekyll and Hyde and Professor Moriarty. I think one loses a little of the moral high ground to say, “I can write characters created by Jules Verne, HG Wells, Robert Louis Stevenson, Arthur Conan Doyle and Frank Baum, but it’s wrong for anyone else to write my characters.”

    Some folks have replied to this with “well, Alan says this is different because he’s using those characters in different situations.” (I’m not vouching that Alan said that, only that this is the most common reply. If he never said anything to that effect I’m happy to be corrected.)

    I’m really good with the English language, but I’ve turned that sentence over several times and I can’t parse it in any logical way. What the heck does it even mean? The moment you have Mr. Hyde do anything not in Robert Louis Stevenson’s book, it’s a “different situation.” I think that the argument being made here is that by putting Mr. Hyde in a modern context, then that makes it Alan’s and that makes it legally and morally okay.

    If that’s true, then I invite Alan to try that with James Bond, or Jason Bourne, or any other character where the writer or the estate is still around to fight for the rights of their characters. Legally, yes, you can do what you wish with public domain characters. But one ends up on a slippery moral slope to say that all of these other writers' characters are fair game but Alan’s characters are sacred on a moral or emotional basis.

    I would suggest that there are just as many people around the world who hold Wendy from Peter Pan sacred, or who might think it untoward that Alan had Mr. Hyde literally sodomize the Invisible Man TO DEATH after the latter serially raped a bunch of girls at a private school. How would Robert Louis Stevenson or H.G. Wells have viewed such a story?

    Despite this, somehow, by Alan’s lights, that’s not just okay, it is right and proper. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have done it. Alan’s a genius, and if it were in my power I’d set him up with a big distribution system, ten million dollars, and publish anything he wrote, up to and including the phone book.

    I’m just suggesting that one needs to be consistent in one's moral stance if one wishes that moral stance to be taken seriously.

    “This will dilute the legacy of the original Watchmen.”

    Can’t happen. The book is the book is the book. It will always be up on the shelf. You can read it alone, or after the prequels, or before...it doesn’t change a word of it. The original book has twenty five years of legacy standing behind it. It’s not that fragile. It’s a work of art, and art endures.

    “So how come you left Thor because they were messing with the story?”

    Apples, meet oranges. Thor was a work in process, versus a finished work in the case of Watchmen. No one's suggesting a mid-course correction in the original book. I would have been happy to remain on Thor for decades, but when I saw the ominous approach of an Event that would once again erase or damage the story that I had worked so hard to create, I opted out. By contrast, nobody is infringing on a story Alan wants to write. Finally, again, opting out of Thor was my choice, just as it’s Alan’s choice not to be involved in any further Watchmen projects. I have no more right to complain about what came afterward than...well, anyone else in that situation.

    “You didn’t like what Mongoose Publishing did with Babylon 5.”

    True. Leaving aside that they were trying to include novels into a licensing contract that was intended only for game books and reference...leaving aside that instead of going to quality writers they picked up fan fiction on the cheap from amateur writers...the books were dreadful and not in keeping with the standard that I applied to anything done in the B5 universe. I’d bounced a couple of properly authorized and sanctioned novels previously because I didn’t feel they were up to snuff. The quality was the issue, not my involvement, because under contract I was involved and had approval. Had the books been better, they would’ve come out. They weren’t, and they didn’t. Apples and oranges.

    I think those are all the major points that have been repeatedly brought up here and online elsewhere. To which I would add only the following codicil.

    When I met with the others in New York to discuss these books, I was in awe of the assembled talent. These were, and are, some of the brightest lights in the comic business. (And me, holding up the rear.) Listening to Brian A, I frankly thought I should be sitting at the children’s table, not here. And beside me was Len Wein, who was involved with the original Watchmen books. Amazing.

    I wish you could’ve been there. I wish you could’ve seen the passion, the care, the creativity in their eyes and in their voices. There was no talk of money, or of deals, it was all about digging into characters for whom we all shared a profound reverence and appreciation. No detail was too small to delve into. What really happened to this character, who died or disappeared? Why did this other character dissolve into madness and alcohol? Who the hell was the Twilight Lady? There was an excitement and a dedication to preserve the quality of the characters that I wish you could have been present to witness firsthand.

    It. Was. Awesome.

    I have always put a great emphasis on doing right by the money fans have to spend on product. This is because I come from ridiculously poor circumstances, and equally ridiculous fannish circumstances. I saved all summer to buy a membership in the Supermen of America Club. Another summer got me a wonderful envelope from FOOM. I was the only kid in my neighborhood who not only ordered a pair of X-Ray Specs, but expected them to actually work...and was devastated when they didn’t.

    So I’ve always viewed things from a perspective of, “Is this going to be worth somebody’s hard earned cash?” I won’t speak of my stuff, because the specter of enlightened self-interest raises its head...but when I think of what Brian and Darwyn and the others are doing with their books, the stories they’ve chosen to tell, and the reaction I think these stories will meet, the quality of the art and the storytelling...for me, as a fan, the answer is an enthusiastic “hell, yes.”

    The books will speak for themselves.

    Everything else is just foreplay.
     
  10. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "The quality was the issue,"

    Quality is quite the subjective term, isn't it? So we should assume that these books are to be of the same quality as Watchmen?
     
  11. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    With the creative talent involved? I don't see why not.
     
  12. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Just to be clear. We should expect that all of these new works are going to be of the same - or better - quality as the original Watchmen (as in the same applause, awards, yada yada)?
     
  13. scnj

    scnj Captain Captain

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    I think we should assume that a lineup of amazing creators are going to put 100% of their effort into delivering the best storylines they can featuring these characters. Anything else would be setting up for disappointment.
     
  14. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I expect that type of quality in all the comics I read to be honest. Doesn't matter what it is or who is involved. It's up to the reader if it matches their expectations or not. With the talent that is involved with Before Watchmen, I absolutely expect it to be of the same quality of the original. I think that is why DC has made sure to include those that are involved.
     
  15. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Someone could write a great story and still not measure up to the quality of Watchmen.
     
  16. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That''s true too. I don't get what point you are tying to make...well I kind of do since you've pretty much written these off anyway, but why are we carrying on in this particular line of discussion?
     
  17. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's a matter of opinion, I guess. Len Wein was never more than a decent journeyman writer at his best. JMS is wildly overrated in my book (haven't liked anything of his I've read since Midnight Nation...and who knows if he'll even finish it) and Azzarello is hit (Joker) or miss (Superman).

    Of the list, the only one I'm really looking forward to is "Minutemen" because of Darwyn Cooke and the fact that it's least explored aspect of that particular universe.

    I don't know about that. Sometimes making something a series dilutes what people admired about the original to the point where we tend to forget how good the standalone original was. For example: A lot of people tend to forget the original Rocky was an Oscar winning film with a lot of heart because the sequels got so cartoonish.

    In any event, I think the prequels may be the least of it. If they sell as well as DC would hope, I wouldn't be surprised to see DiDio and company find a way to start doing DCU/Watchmen universe crossover stories...most likely as a companywide crossover event (Infinite Watchmen, anyone?)
     
  18. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Morrison intended Dr. Manhattan to be apart of Superman Beyond 3D. I think he was called something else in the actual issues...I forget which. I wouldn't be surprised if these led to an eventual crossover with the New 52.
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Like others I have to laugh at Moore and his fans getting all up in arms about DC using the Watchmen characters. Afer all his four most famous "creations" are
    1. A revamp of Marvel Man, which in it's self was a revamp of Captain Marvel
    2. Watchmen, a revamp of the Charlton characters
    3. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which mined the classics for its character.
    4. A total revamp of Swamp Thing that told us everything you know is wrong.
    :guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

    Maybe these new creators can improve upon Watchmen the same way he improved upon Marvel Man, Swamp Thing, the classics and Charlton's heroes. :techman:
     
  20. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Your point about Moore's work being built on borrowed characters is well taken. Unfortunately, however, not a single creator on that list is as good a writer as Moore in his prime. So I'd be very surprised to see anyone on that list improve on the original.