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Old July 12 2014, 11:49 AM   #428
Lieutenant Commander
Re: Homosexual Rights in the Star Trek Universe

Reading up on this thread, as someone directed me to it.

Your long post interested me Xavier...

Bigots are defined by intransigent opinions, that refuse to conceive of contradictory evidence, and a refusal to countenance or respect those who disagree with them. it is a thin line between faith and bigotry, but I think most people would agree the concept of attacking those who think different is a landmark on that border.

Actually wikipedia has quite a bit to say about homosexuals in ww2, and wikipedia is not "hollywood". Is it accurate? Biased? Can anyone change it? Well good luck messing around with a holocaust page on wikipedia...

So lets look at the "facts"-

Wikipedia - Between 1933 and 1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of whom some 50,000 were officially sentenced.[1] Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration camps.[1] It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Rüdiger Lautmann believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%.

Hitler was clearly no fan of teh gays. Furthermore, his whole ideology and the contradiction with previous licentiousness in Germany, is pretty clear for people to see.

xavier - the truth is that in the 1940s homosexuality was hidden and hardly talked about. So the reality there could have hardly been no gays put in concentration camps because most homosexuals were closeted by 99% in the 1940s.
No. Thats conjecture, a bullsh-t statistic and a circular argument. And pretty s____ conjecture at that.

Star Trek has been a champion of civl rights and sometimes it shows the horror that people faced to get equal rights. Remember that episode with Captain Sisko trying to make it as a black writer in the 1960s?
This is true, to an extent. Nothing with regard to homosexuality though. And as stated in the other thread, Roddenbery and his friend Rod Serling, have both been documented substancially as homophobic, although I fully accept this wouldnt have been considered as such in their era.. So essentially you are looking at people who were hostage to their era, (like slave traders or nazis...)

Roddenbery definitely changed his mind after the AIDs crisis. Serling died before it.

star trek has touched on world war 2 in a couple of episodes, However I have yet to see them cover this issues of gays been put in concentration camps.
Well thats a point for the wrong team bro.

I have also heard a myth that some blacks had white slaves during the days of slavery in usa. the reality is that when people think of holocust, it is about 6 millions jews being wiped out and when people think of slavery it is about a whole race being enslaved by another race. there is no solid proof anywhere of the other latter that Hollywood has pushed on people. I have yet to see the history channel talk about gays being put in concentration camps and the history channel has done great documentaries in world war 2.
White slaves existed. I dont know about black ownership, but white slaves are very well documented.

Anyone who thinks slavery is a whole race being enslaved, is developmentally challenged. One word. Africa. It is fair to say the rationale for slavery largely created the prevailing concept of "race" and cast a large section of people as animals and established an idea of northern europeans as superior and a whole separate color to other people, on the basis of translucent skin and a melatonin deficiency.

I find it horrific that many gays are killed for being gay but you know what? chrisitans are also slaughted in many countians for being Christians or for even holding a bible in public. there are Christians churches that are bombed daily with thousands of chritians killed. there are Christians who had also jailed and excutected when they choose not to return to the old faith.In many middle and african countries it is against the law to be a Christian. So where is your outrage over that as well?
No one is slaughtered for going about their business. They are slaughtered because others are incapable of the same.

Muslims are the biggest victims of slaughter on the planet, last I checked. Even if we look at Israel/Palestine, - what is the ratio again, innocent or not?

In Hollywood if you want a career boost, you can come out as gay and get it. in Hollywood if you want your career to die, just say you are are bible believing Christian and no one will give you an acting job ever again.
Simply not true. Lots of christians in hollywood and a lot of people who were blackballed or shunned because of their sexuality. Being "gay" was not the new black, until very recently, and it is still debatable what effect this has on peoples careers. Brokeback mountain is two straight actors for a reason.

Zachary Quinto has no great worries about coming out as a Catholic.

This is why I think homosexual rights in trek is just as importance as faith freedom. if any Hollywood franchise can cover both, it is star trek.
Ish. Homosexuality isnt really a right, any more than being black is. Freedom of belief is one of the most basic freedoms though, so I guess we agree on its prominence to the human experience. The thing is bigotry is not to be tolerated because thats one set of rights trumping another, and religious bigotry does exist almost endemic to religion, whereas the only bigotry associated with homosexuality is a lack of regard for sexually associating with the opposite sex. Frankly the real issue underpinning this is a fluid understanding of gender and sexuality rather than a binary one. When it comes to religion, often it is built on paradigms that are socially outmoded, however much they are relevant to people are an individual/familial lifestyle choice.

The two do come into conflict somewhat, as religion has a social role of emphasizing the family unit as established as normal by that religion. In reality, our nuclear family is in no way normal, and sexuality and even gender look more like fluid concepts by the day.

There are some African afrirican leaders that have compared this issues but the majoirty of afirican americans do not.
Nice to know you have spoken to them...

majority of afirican americans have said you can not compare civil rights to gay america gays have all the rights there is, what they do not have is to redefined the definition of marriage.a defination that has existed for thousands of years and has been the bedrock of our civilaztion.
In the work place as least, society has spoken and however different, all the isms are targeted and shunned by our prevailing orthodoxy.

The concept of marriage is neither hostage to christianity, nor is it in any way a bracket that is synonymous with the nuclear family and monogamy.

Also interracial marriage never redefined marriage. what it did was strike down racism that stooped the definition of marriage. interracial marriage never changed the definition that marriage is a union between a man and a woman.
There were literally miscegenation laws around at the time, but agreed in principal. America was a messed up place.

gay marriage changes the definition of a man and a woman to a union of two people regardless of their sex.that is not the same thing. which is why I have never supported the rights for gays to get married and i will not support that right even in star trek because the marriage requirements says a marriage is a union between a man and a woman as husband (male)and wife (female). I will like to see star trek uphold that view if they go into a topic like homosexual rights in the trek universe.

the problem is that everyone is hurting because people are easily called prejudice and hateful when you choose to disagree with them.
To an extent. Also people are accused of playing card when they bring up legitmite issues and the same idiots then try to sweep any mention of the issues under the carpet and call the person mentioning them "baiters" or such.

And again - America is one of the worst nations on the planet for this crap and also just happens to be one of the most messed up socially when it comes to these issues, compared to western europe anyways.

people in the real world have spoken,the courts may strike down a lot of stuff but every time the american people vote on the issues. it always them voting to keep the definition of marriage as a man and a woman.
For now...

star trek should be a reflection of that should they dicuss the debate of homosexual right in the trek universe but trek being part of Hollywood it is no secret which root they will take.
Not really. ST should be a view of the future with American values, and one would hope human values. It should also feature a diverse array of alternatives. Some respected and close to home and some completely messed up.

Star trek was about the human philosophy, such philosophy is what gives us our rights and if star trek was to be accurate, i am sure the issues of gays will be be accepted
Its really more akin to liberal American philosophy.

because overall all we humans should have tolerance regardless of our differences but in no way should star trek ever air an episode or a film where they have one rights trumple over another rights. we can all agree to disagree and trek should have that presented well.
Right "trumple" all over other rights constantly, however the core rights, if they exist should indeed be cherished by ST.
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