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Old March 23 2014, 09:54 PM   #175
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Probert's REAL N.C.C.-1701-C

Mytran wrote: View Post
I'm under no illusions that YE is a mess - but by itself is a fairly self-contained time loop. Assuming a classic "our universe changes" approach; at the end the Enterprise-C is securely 19 years in the past and although we (the viewers) see Tasha boldly ride off into certain death, is it just as possible that once that ship passed through the time vortex, EVERYTHING got reset. There certainly seems to be no indication of 24 hours passing (or however long it was that Ent-C spent getting repaired), as Picard and crew are still starring at the viewscreen. It's as if no time passed at all
That's an interesting thought that we can see from comparing the beginning and the end.

Mytran wrote: View Post
and if that is true then all the Ent-D's and Ent-C's actions and sacrifices were cancelled out the second the Ent-C re-entered the rift; history literally was reset. YE becomes a "what if" story in the vain of DC Comics' "imaginary tales - The Death Of Superman!". Tasha Yar would have gone back in time and sacrificed herself, no doubt about that. But ultimately she didn't, because history was restored to its original form - where Tasha Yar died at Vagra II.
Ahh time travel stories :P

I don't agree it would be cancelled out though.

When the E-C left the timeline and went into the future, it spawned the War Timeline where Yar is still alive so she can go back in time on the E-C. When the E-C returned to the time of her departure it either:

A) created a slightly altered timeline with the War Tasha on the E-C now trapped back in time (this implies that the original TNG-series timeline didn't have a War Tasha on the E-C and Garret was in her place) and the War timeline no longer exists or

B) the TNG-series timeline was restored to as it was before (implying War Tasha was always on the E-C) and the War timeline no longer exits.

In both cases, the episode could proceed from the point of the opening of the vortex since the timeline essentially played back from Narendra to the beginning of the episode.

Mytran wrote: View Post
And then comes Redemption and a whole barrel of retcon! We are told that Tasha survived and went on to become a mother, surviving at least another 5 years in the past.
However, we're told from an unreliable source and AFAIK, that story was never verified. It reminds me of those movies where the bad guy tells the protagonist's love interest that the protagonist was killed and the love interest believes it wholeheartedly and then is driven into despair or worse. Or the bad guy was said to have died but there is no body.

Mytran wrote: View Post
Where did this Tasha Yar come from? Not our universe certainly, since the events of her personal history never happened here. She should have winked out of existence the second she left the temporal vortex, assuming she came from our universe.
I doubt that she would wink out of existence since we've seen other characters cross timelines and universes.

The only things we know for sure (because it was shown to us) is that War Tasha went back in time because War Picard approved it and that Guinan is vaguely aware of this. There isn't any changed premise between "YE" and "Redemption". We don't know when or how War Tasha was killed or what really happened to the crew of the E-C.

Mytran wrote: View Post
It is noticeable that not one character in Redemption makes reference to alternate timelines or parallel universes, leaving Picard and the others to fill in the blanks themselves (seeming to throw further doubt on Sela's claim). Historically, the existence of parallel realities is known about to Starfleet (Mirror, Mirror). So, wouldn't this be a natural conclusion for our captain to come to? If not the Mirror Universe per se, then Sela's mother would probably originate from a similar source.
Yet we've also seen people cloned (see Shinzon/Picard in "Nemesis", Kahless-Clone in "Rightful Heir", the clones in "Up the Long Ladder", etc) so looking in their own universe/timeline would appear to be more logical than looking outside that especially since they were lacking Tasha's body to examine.

Mytran wrote: View Post
From the episode Parallels:

DATA: For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities.
Data doesn't present this theory as something newly discovered (unlike the tomographic imaging scanner in All Good Things) so there's no reason to think it wouldn't be available to Picard a couple of years prior. So despite the guilt and accusations piled upon him, I think Picard's final statement to Sela sums up his viewpoint on the whole mess nicely:

PICARD: Doubts? I'm full of them. But nothing in my experience can persuade me that what you have told me is true.
P.S.
Personally, I think a little crayon here and there can clarify a complex theory nicely - at the very least, everyone gets to keep their preferred version of the Enterprise-C, what could be better than that?

P.P.S.

OK, Tasha Yar winking out of existence is pretty appealing, but that's just my theory
Can we do the same to Sela too, she really grinds my gears!
I think the problem is trying to get mileage out of "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Redemption" to justify Probert's-C. You can't because there is no room for it because if Probert's-C was the TNG-series E-C then magically substituting the Sternbach-C in the Narendra battle would've cause the Klingons to question what this mystery ship was that was destroyed there since it wasn't any ship from Starfleet. Remember, "YE" and "Redemption" don't go far enough back into the past to affect the construction of the E-C. For "Yesterday's Enterprise" to work the E-C must be consistent from when she went forward and back in time.

Like I said before, the only way you can work Probert's-C in as the E-C is to have it appear in one of the quantum universes as seen in "Parallels". Alternatively, you could even look for a time travel story that went far enough back to affect the E-C's construction like "First Contact", "The Voyage Home", "All Good Things", etc.
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