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Old February 22 2014, 02:13 PM   #1109
hux
Lieutenant Commander
 
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Location: Yorkshire, UK
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
In what manner are you desperate to prove he exists? Physically he is just Neelix and Tuvok. Mentally he only SEEMS to perhaps have his own thoughts. It does not necessarily make it so. Im dismissing his survival desire which is the most basic animalistic function. He does not really exist, he never did. Two people have been forced together so he 'seems' different but in reality...he is not. He is just two people.
But i don’t accept that it’s basic....i don’t see him as irrationally grasping at survival. He makes a reasoned argument for his existence. He demonstrates thought and emotion. His decision would lead to the death of Tuvok and Neelix which neither of them would want (and in doing so proves that his consciousness is separate from theirs)

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
If the physical matter of Tuvix was not destroyed, then why can you not make the leap to see that his mental self was not destroyed either?
Because we can define matter scientifically....but we can only define consciousness from a philosophical perspective and so it's more complex, abstract, murky

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I acknowledge that his mind is dependent on this fusion but EVERYTHING that it is composed of is simply Neelix and Tuvok. There is no third person, the way this 'third' being is expressing itself may SEEM like a third person but the only physical and mental matter it has belong to Tuvok and Neelix.
But that doesn’t explain his willingness to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix. The idea that it’s from some simple survival instinct doesn’t work either. Firstly because of the reasons above and secondly because after he has made his “thoughtful” and reasoned argument, he then accepts his fate. True survival instinct would have him punching people, running down corridors, grappling with security, kicking and screaming until the last....but instead he accepts (with a reasoned mind) that his voice will go unheard

For me the deciding factor in accepting he is a separate consciousness is his willingness to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix to keep it. The only way i would be willing to entertain the possibility that Tuvix did not possess unique consciousness (and was simply two minds combined) is if you accept that some part of Tuvok or Neelix (or both) secretly wanted to remain as Tuvix

But which one?
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Last edited by hux; February 22 2014 at 06:14 PM.
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