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Old February 22 2014, 10:16 AM   #1103
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
You'll have to do better than that.
No, not really....that’s kinda the point....I’m not saying you have to agree with Descartes but using his definition of existence, Tuvix qualifies entirely

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?
Well exactly....for example, the thought...”i don’t want Tuvok and Neelix to be brought back...i want to continue as Tuvix”....who does that thought belong to then?

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.
In a discussion about whether or not someone exists, how is it valid to point out that he may get ill (physically or mentally) that doesn’t mean anything....Neelix may get ill...doesn’t detract from his existence being real

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.
If i take a dump and the stool has consciousness and thinks where am i...why was i hanging out of that mans anus.....then by Descartes criteria, it exists...regardless of its origins, regardless of it’s reliance on me as progenitor, regardless of it’s imminent flushing.....IT THINKS.....IT EXISTS!

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.
Mind or Brain?’re shifting the goal posts now and accepting that Tuvix exists but that his consciousness is borrowed. I see no evidence of that. He may have the matter of Tuvok and Neelix but his consciousness is his own....the fact that he is willing to sacrifice Tuvok and Neelix to keep it, highlights this.....and it matters not a jot that it requires Tuvok and Neelix for that new consciousness to exist

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.........he wants to live....great. As any animal would.
Again, these goal posts are he does exist (phew) but his existence is simplistic (like that of an animal) and therefore can be dismissed as less valid and less real. Seems to me that you’re coming around to the fact that he exists but you want his existence to be terminated without complications so he exists but only in the most basic manner

My position is....Tuvix did exist as an independent consciousness but not as an independent life form. Janeway’s actions pose questions about the nature of consciousness and rights but cannot be classed as murder because the physical matter of Tuvix was not actually destroyed (only the consciousness) No jury would convict (but some philosophers might.....and that’s enough for the question to hang over this episode and for there to be no definite right answer....i’m not asking you to change your view, just to accept that there may be some grey area here)
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