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Old February 22 2014, 09:09 AM   #1101
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
hux wrote: View Post

Someone who understands Decartes?
You'll have to do better than that.



hux wrote: View Post
Yes, he does....demonstrably
And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?





You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.





I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to prove....my point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.





In what way are they dead? They are both strolling about, fused together, minds merged, as 'Tuvix'. They are far from dead. It is unclear just how dead their minds actually are.





They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.





It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live.
hux wrote: View Post
You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever be....plus i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness
'Very definitely' again is assumptive. There is nowhere near enough evidence in the episode to completely give a definitive answer on this. We see very little of him and he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

At the end of the day, anyone who calls Janeway a murderer is bordering on hysterical and she made the most ethical, moral decision in a difficult, tragic circumstance.

No there not, they simply accept that Tuvix had a right to live, and that right was taken from him against his will. Even you admit that he was definantly an indivudal with his own consciousness. So from a LEGAL point of view doesn't this individual with a consciousness have a right to live?
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