View Single Post
Old February 22 2014, 03:12 AM   #1096
Lieutenant Commander
TheGoodStuff's Avatar
Location: Scotland
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

hux wrote: View Post

Someone who understands Decartes?
You'll have to do better than that.

hux wrote: View Post
Yes, he does....demonstrably
And whose thoughts are they exactly? Tuvix? Neelix? Tuvok?

hux wrote: View Post
Now you're getting hysterical....who is to say none of that will happen...who is to say that a magic bean won't shoot out of his arse and save the human race...who

and since when did developing a mental illness mean....your existence is less valid....less real
You can be as facetious as you wish. My point is perfectly valid. He has just undergone a radical accident and has been alive for the proverbial ten minutes. It seems LIKELY that he will have stability issues and with all kinds of fusion of brain tissue, Vulcan/Talaxian blood/dna/cells etc it seems likely that something will eventually go wrong.

Also, nobody mentioned mental illness lowering the validity of existence. Those are your words not mine.

hux wrote: View Post
He doesn't need to know it...he only need possess it....Descartes considered perception of existence with a mind (as opposed to physical senses) means you exist...where you exist & what you exist as....who knows....but you do exist
I will say this again: DOES HE POSSESS IT? 'He' is a fusion of two men there is no Tuvix he is the combined face of Neelix and Tuvok. I don't quite know what you are trying to say there about Descartes. Tuvix having a mind is not a debate here, one of Descartes most basic theories is that outside of the mind is to be doubted and is very hard to point is that the mind the Tuvix possesses MUST belong to Tuvok and Neelix. It does not necessarily equate to him have an entirely different mind. In a sense he has two, neither of which are his.

hux wrote: View Post
From the Decartes point of view....they could simply be defined as dead...whereas, Tuvix exists in the here and now....his existence coming in lieu of Tuvok and Neelix doesn't reduce the validity of his existence in any way (and having the ability to bring them back also doesn't)
In what way are they dead? They are both strolling about, fused together, minds merged, as 'Tuvix'. They are far from dead. It is unclear just how dead their minds actually are.

hux wrote: View Post
Data had no birth....the doctor had no birth.....but they are eventually recognised as having consciousness....of existing....again, i go back to Descartes....consciousness means existence and Tuvix has that in abundance
They do have consciousness. Because their programs were so advanced that they could be deemed to be sentient. Again, quote Descartes all you like, we can discuss the Meditations as much as you wish. The point here, is that mind is not actually his. It belongs to Tuvok and Neelix.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
If that is the prosecutions case then it is spurious at best.
hux wrote: View Post's actually quite demands that you accept an individual consciousness is at work....and Tuvix contradicting the (presumed) wishes of his composit hosts demonstrates that very clearly
It is impossible to know if he hears any wishes to ignore. He, as far as we see, is simply created and wishes to live. The most basic instinctual desire of any animal. It does not validate HIS consciousness as a unique one and certainly not as one that is independent of Neelix and Tuvok.

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Its not an either or situation? Are you serious? The whole point is that its exactly an either or situation! Either she saves Neelix and Tuvok or she allows Tuvix to live.
hux wrote: View Post
You're turning this into a very black and white issue which i don't think it can ever i wasn't referring to Tuvix so much as Janeway.....i'm bascially saying that you don't have to accept that Tuvix wasn't real in order to defend Janeway from the accusation of murder....they are not mutually exclusive

Janeway's decision was right (and she did not commit murder) but equally, Tuvix was very definitely real and very definitely an individual with his own consciousness
'Very definitely' again is assumptive. There is nowhere near enough evidence in the episode to completely give a definitive answer on this. We see very little of him and he wants to live....great. As any animal would.

At the end of the day, anyone who calls Janeway a murderer is bordering on hysterical and she made the most ethical, moral decision in a difficult, tragic circumstance.
#1. DS9 #2. TNG #3. VOY #4.ENT #5.TOS
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes. - Gene Roddenberry
TheGoodStuff is offline   Reply With Quote