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Old October 30 2013, 02:47 AM   #400
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Egger wrote: View Post
Hmm ... but aren't we now at the starting point again? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ships in your last scale chart are of the official sizes again, aren't they? And the initial problem was that the Excelsior seems much larger than 467m.
Well, yes to the latter. It seems like a setback but really it's not. I mistakenly thought that Mr. Probert's deck alignments were different that previously thought and actually made the refit bigger than we thought... but that simply turns out to not be the case after I corrected my math error.

And, since my original Excelsior cross-section was the official size, I've always planned to create a revised version at this size as well as the larger, apparent size. I simultaneously began revising my old TOS Enterprise cross sections, and the two projects sort of collided...

Egger wrote: View Post
So, the "right" scale for the Excelsior filming model would still be the one that has a deck for each window row on the secondary hull. How high these decks are is a matter of opinion I think, there's only a minimum, as you noted, the 8 ft corridors and rooms a little higher than that, so maybe 9.5 ft is reasonable for that ship.
Mostly agreed. I think with the refit Enterprise we have Mr. Probert's intention that the secondary hull has 12 foot decks, and relatedly precedent for the possibility that the Excelsior's secondary hull might too. Granted, since it's intention, it is not exactly canon, but it happens to coincide with the fact that the windows align perfectly this way. In fact, the secondary hull is problematic with any other alignment, so I feel like the refit is actually pretty consistent with her official size. That, in turn, would directly affect the sizes of the ships that use her parts.

Egger wrote: View Post
Regarding the two Enterprises, they are always at the same scale respectively (289/305; 327/344) and their saucer deck heights are the same. They only differ in the height of their engineering hull decks, and there is also only a minimum deck height to be taken into account here (10 ft, or a little bit more).
Again, generally agreed. And the main difference between the two are the window row alignments. The refit's are pretty well pinned down, but the TOS version's are a little all over the place.

Egger wrote: View Post
(By the way, if your problem is with the different deck heights between the TOS and TMP engineering hull, Nob Akimoto's hull compartments could be a solution. During the refit, they simply replaced the old ones with bigger compartments, resulting in fewer decks.)
You know, I had purposefully tried to keep the same secondary hull deck structure between the two, because I didn't like the notion of the rebuild being that thorough and thought that the two weren't so incompatible. However, reading it from you it doesn't seem so bad.

Egger wrote: View Post
To scale the two Enterprises to the Excelsior then, the window sizes (of the TMP Enterprise and the Excelsior) could be a starting point. When the ships are scaled to that, we'll see if it makes any sense (if it adheres to the minimum deck heights).
So, I did finally try that:

There are two scale versions. One scales the Enterprise to the stripes on the saucer edges. The other actually tries to scale the window sizes themselves, and, coincidentally, makes the secondary hull window rows line up pretty closely.

The sizes break down thusly:

Scaled to Stripes on saucer edge:
1137/305 meters = 3.7278688524590163934426229508197
1880 pixels/3.7278688524590163934426229508197 = 504.3 meters

Scaled to match window size/deck spacing on secondary hulls:
995/305 meters = 3.2622950819672131147540983606557
1880 pixels/3.2622950819672131147540983606557 = 576.28 meters

So ignoring the actual dimensions for a minute since those are kind of in flux, if you scale it to the stripes, the Enterprise is about 60% the Excelsior's length, and if you scale it to the windows, she's about 53%. Compare this to the approximate 65% of the official sizes.

Workbee wrote: View Post
LOL, thanks for understanding. To cap the day off perfectly, my wipers stopped working while it was pouring rain.
Oh man, sorry to hear that.

Workbee wrote: View Post
Not sure if this was a separate thought, but I was talking about the secondary hull, not the portion below the bridge. I figure you understood what I said, just wanted to make sure.
Yessir, totally on the same page.

Workbee wrote: View Post
Actually, speaking of the bridge needing to be lowered, that seems to fit with the original concept, where the bridge was like a planetarium with stations up against the outside wall and slightly lowered.

So, new day new notion. I came across this ortho (which I used above) that I believe was done by the fantastic Tobias Richter in his build of the ship, which, after comparing to screencaps, appears to be pretty accurate to the real original filming model down to the window arrangement. I decided to try extrapolating decks.

Here's the fun part. Aligning all the decks on the secondary hull, we find a pretty consistent (and fairly hard to ignore) window pattern. Then, aligning the saucer decks to a visual best fit at a 9.5 ft size (assuming the secondary hull decks are 12 footers, and Workbee, note the non-deck between the saucer and interhull, and also just below the uppermost deck under the secondary hull "flattop") we end up thus:

10 px/9.5 ft = 1.053 px/ft
2080 px * 1.053 = 2189.47 feet = 667.35 meters

Backing into the pixel size of the 12 ft decks:
13 px/ 1.0526315789473684210526315789474 = 12.3 feet

13 px/12 ft = 1.083 px/ft
9.5 * 1.083 = 10.2865

So, she'd actually be even bigger than we thought. If we assume that all decks are 9.5 feet (with a resulting saucer realignment not shown here.)

13 px/9.5 ft = 1.368 px/ft
2080 px * 1.368 = 2846.32 ft = 867.56 meters

So she gets even bigger.

An important note: the top of the Excelsior secondary hull "flattop" is actually curved slightly, being higher in the center than on the outside. Previously I had backed a deck up directly against this, but in reality this would be impossible as the deck would taper on the our edges rather significantly. (Of course, one might be able to have a 9.5 ft outer deck section, and a 12 ft inner deck section...)

Out of curiosity I did an analysis on the Galaxy cross section I've been using in my comparisons to try to guess how tall the decks are. I really need to find a larger resolution file to be completely accurate, but here's that math regardless:

1586 px = 642.5 meters = 2107.94 feet

1586/2107.94 = .7524 px/ft
7/.7524 = 9.3 ft

Sooo, maybe all Enterprise-D decks are 9.5 feet? All the more reason to keep the secondary hull decks in the Excelsior 12 foot to keep the relative scaling plausible.

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
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