Thread: The Borg
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Old October 22 2013, 06:24 AM   #41
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Re: The Borg

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
Predestination. Basically an event in the past happens to trigger an event in the future despite the fact that it hadn't happened yet.

In the episode they called it a Pogo Paradox.

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.
SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.
DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?
SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.
DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.
SEVEN: You're welcome.

As Seven recalls those events the timeline was never altered really so that Borg incursion had always happened.
The problem I have with this exchange is because it doesn't properly reflect what we see in FC.

2373 Earth before Borg time travel

2373 Earth after Borg time travel. Complete with an atmosphere containing high concentrations of methane, carbon monoxide, fluorine and a population of nine billion Borg.

2373 Earth after the ENT-E crew repairs the damage and removes the Borg timeline we the audience and the crew of the ENT-E saw at the beginning of the movie from existing.

Seven can't have knowledge that the Borg would both succeed and fail at assimilating Earth. Therefore I propose that it cannot be a predestination paradox. The timeline where the Borg succeeded was erased when the Ent-E stopped the Borg in the past. Seven wasn't present during the events of FC and at the time (1999 Relativity's airdate) ENT the series hadn't even been conceived. As someone else said, "Regeneration" fixes this gaffe with the Borg sending a signal to the DQ.

Without that episode though you could watch "FC" and then "Relativity" and end up scratching your head thinking: "hey wait, Picard and Worf destroyed the dish before the Borg could send a signal in FC. How does Seven have any info about the mission to assimilate Earth if there was never a message sent?".

I don't think the events of FC fit the role of a predestination/pogo paradox for different reasons. To me if you watch the series of events in FC. There is only one timeline that is constantly being changed and rewritten.

Unaltered which is supplanted by the Borg's incursion
Borg timeline: supplanted by the Ent-E
Final timeline at the end of the movie would be similar to Unaltered timeline with variations.

With Seven and the Temporal Starfleet guy fail to mention is that had the Borg never tried to assimilate Earth in 2063; Zefram Cochrane would've carried out his scheduled flight on time and first contact with the Vulcans would've still happened. The Borg's interference was not a necessary contribution in order to make first contact and by extension the Federation happen.

Compare time travel mechanics of FC with say Terminator. Where Skynet sends a T-100 in to the past to murder Sarah Connor before she gives birth to John Connor. Then there is John Connor. Who sent his own father Kyle Reese to 1984. His mission was to protect/fall in love/have intercourse with his mother to ensure that he (John) would be born. That is a predestination/pogo paradox. Kyle Reese did not exist in 1984. He hadn't even been born yet. However by the machines attempting to change the war in their favor, and John having secret knowledge from the tapes his mother left him. Secured the circular series of events that drive the Terminator franchise. Altered effects can be seen in the subsequent Terminator movies.

Another good representation of a predestination/pogo paradox would be ending scenes of Final Fantasy VIII. Where the protagonist Squall, a leader of the SeeD (military group formed to combat Sorcerers) travels back in time to when he was a child and meets his orphanage's matron Edea. He gives Edea the idea for SeeD and tells her his mission to combat evil sorceress'. Edea who is an elemental sorceress at the time would become a future antagonist ten years later. Edea would be possessed by a sorceress (Ultemecia) from hundreds of years into her own future. Ultemecia who was the final boss of FF8. Ultemecia (who uses space/time magic) travels to the exact same moment that Squall and Edea are having their conversation and transfers her magic power to Edea before she dies. This sets up a circular loop for the game.

Before the Squall and Ultemecia traveled to the past. Edea was just a matron for war orphans. Interacting with Squall and gaining knowledge about her future act of founding SeeD, inspired her to do just that. While interacting with the future sorceress Ultemecia and by absorbing her power, insured that Edea would one day be used by the same sorceress in the future as revenge against SeeD.


Sometimes I wish ENT was officially made AU like JJTrek. Then they could've made it as futuristic as possible and not have to worry about why tech and story don't line up completely symmetrical with TOS and the TNG era. Rick Berman said in interviews after ENT was cancelled that was one of his ideas. To make a show that looked like it was 150 years more advanced that what we have now. Worrying about the prequel looking for advanced that tech and computers scene in TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY. ARGH THOSE HIDEOUS BLOCK COMPUTERS!!

Last edited by M.A.C.O.; October 22 2013 at 01:22 PM.
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