Thread: The Son'a
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Old October 9 2013, 04:41 PM   #101
grendelsbayne's Avatar
Location: Netherlands
Re: The Son'a

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Your arguments consist of unsupported dictums, straw-men and rhetoric.
For example:
You really need to read up law 101 - the law of a state applies to events happening in its jurisdiction, even if it's not invoked the second the events happen. This law is binding to other states who recognised the first as legitimate - it's irrelevant whether the latter states existed or not when the events took place.
This completely ignores many other intricacies of applying law, like statutes of limitation and the fact that states very often refuse to enforce the laws of other states when they disagree with them. To suggest that the Federation would actively rely on an old Romulan charge that was never made, and possibly never even existed, in order to evict an entire planet without any attempt at discussion is plainly absurd.

Adverse possession requires, beyond public possession, the exercise of this possession for a period of time (at least decades). Plus, other conditions.
No adverse possession for Cestus III. Or for the Briar patch.
Yes, you've mentioned this before. You continue to ignore the fact that the Baku possession of the Briar patch planet very clearly *does* meet your time requirements, and you yet again refuse to name any other requirement for adverse possession which they supposedly do not meet.

Whether Cestus III meets those time requirements, I couldn't say. I don't recall if the episode specified how old the colony was.

'Insurrection' expressly stated the baku were actively hiding in the Briar patch.
I am reading the transcript right now. Here's the descriptions I find of the Baku history:

"[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We came here from a solar system on the verge of self-annihilation, ...where technology had created weapons that threatened to destroy all life. A small group of us set off to find a new home, ...a home that would be isolated from the threats of other worlds. ...That was three hundred and nine years ago."

Talking about the benefits of isolation, but no mention of hiding.

"[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]We've always known that to survive, we had to remain apart. It hasn't been easy. Many of the young people want to know more about the offland. ...They're attracted to stories of a faster pace of life.[/SIZE][/FONT]"

[/SIZE][/FONT]More about isolation, still nothing about hiding.

And that's it. What do you know? The film does not, in fact, say anything about the Baku hiding.
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.[/SIZE][/FONT]
This is also the only reference at all to the Federation's knowledge of the Baku's origins, making his original disregard (before the discovery of their level of knowledge) for the Prime directive still pretty inexcusable, since the prime directive is about prewarp civilizations, not just prewarp civilizations that still exist on their original homeworld. Something which someone clearly seemed to agree with, considering the Federation efforts at keeping their existence a secret from the Baku.

Dougherty said the planet is the federation's (and was not contradicted by Picard, who would have contradicted any statement contrary to fact/law).
Actually, Picard said the planet is in Federation Space, and Dougherty said 'We have the planet', a fairly ambiguous statement in the context of the film, after which Picard tried a few other tacks of argument before plainly stating: "We are betraying the principles upon which the Federation was founded."[/SIZE][/FONT]

And no one at any point mentioned anything about how the Briar Patch supposedly became Federation space, nor did anything to refute the Baku's statement to have been living on the planet for 309 years: longer than the Federation has existed.

If there are any trespassers in this scenario, it's the Federation.

Everyone mentioned how the particles will help BILLIONS.
But, because they destroy your argument, you pretend these canon statements don't exist, yes? And you actually claim your opinion is supported by 'arguments'. lol.
Dougherty claimed they would 'help' billions. In the process of covering his own ass. His main concern is the particles ability to 'double lifespans', which means your whole song and dance about the great medical benefits is also not in the film. So the Federation is violating its principles solely for the benefit of living a little longer, despite the fact that they already benefit from more or less the maximum natural human lifespan. According to Dougherty, whose word is the only source of a whole lot of the arguments you're making.

He's also the only one who claims the Federation government has any real knowledge of the operation, but he still seems awfully uncertain of that same government's reaction if the Enterprise manages to get a message through.

I would go on with listing your so-called 'arguments' were it not obvious you would just come with a different batch of dictums/straw-men/etc.
And you continue to avoid answering any inconvenient questions. I noticed your post contains no source for your repeatedly claimed 'fact' that the planet belonged to the Klingons and the Romulans before the Federation

Whether they are egoist elitists or not does not change what is right. And violating anyone's rights, whether it's 1 person or a billion people is never right, no matter how many people you think you can help.
You must really hate eminent domain.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much.

As for the rest - there are other opinions. For example - a 'moral code' such as the one you're advocating, that allows for so much suffering and death to occur and calls this 'moral' does NOT deserve the name 'moral'.
It reminds me of those religious fanatics who came with ~'Kill them all. God will know his own' during the european wars of religion.
I'm well aware there are other opinions. And considering my stated opinion, it should be obvious that I think you have the right to believe in whatever sort of morality you want. I clearly do not agree.

Who cares about inflicting unfathomable suffering and death when you can say you followed the 'moral' - or religious - rule to the letter, yes, grendelsbayne?
Considering the actual description of how Dougherty is going to 'help' billions, this argument has no relevance to this discussion.

For this discussion, irrelevant, though.
From the premise 'every non-suicidal political entity scans the systems it allows to come within its borders' it follows the briar patch was claimed by an alpha/beta quadrant power before it got trespassed by the baku. Afterwards, it got transferred to the federation - either directly or through a chain of intermediaries.
No, it doesn't. This is the epitomy of just making up your own facts to avoid answering the actual question. Space is huge and there is no reason whatsoever to believe that every single piece of it is already claimed by some 'great power'. Which means the planet was entirely unattached when the Baku arrived, making their claim to the planet very clearly superior to the Federation's.

Really? You actually come with such a statement in a post filled with facts you invented in blatant contradiction to canon? After admitting you barely even remember 'Insurrection' whose minutiae you were discussing?
Your statement is quite amusing - unintentionally, of course.
In light of the fact that you have clearly misrepresented a lot of those 'facts' throughout this discussion, I'd suggest you take your own advice and rewatch/reread the film before continuing the discussion.
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