Thread: The Son'a
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Old October 9 2013, 11:48 AM   #99
grendelsbayne's Avatar
Location: Netherlands
Re: The Son'a

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

The law of a state governs the events happening throughout the jurisdiction of the state - even if it's not invoked the second the event took place. AKA even if you do not throw out the trespassers the second they trespassed, they remain with no property rights. That's law 101.
AKA romulan law applies, klingon law applies, etc.
Klingon and Romulan law do not apply in the Federation. Federation law did not even exist when the Baku colony was created. There is no real jurisdiction here.

The romulan/klingon/federation claim is supported by their power and recognised by the other powers in the quadrant. AKA as per the alpha/beta quadrants legal systems, their claim is valid.
Comparing that to the 'moon land' claims of nobodys is yet another straw-men.
This argument is, again, all good and well for Klingons or Romulans. The Federation is not based on power grabs.

The baku were HIDING in the Briar Patch. The situation says so, the movie said so, etc, etc. No adverse possession here. Deal with it.
The Baku were PLAINLY VISIBLE from orbit. This does not meet any reasonable definition of hiding, no matter what the movie says. Deal with it.

Trespassers are evicted, not convicted. Trespassing is generally a civil law matter (apart from a few forms which are crimes).
Trespassers are evicted from undeveloped land all the time.
Forcibly evicted without any warning? From land that isn't anywhere near civilization and has no markings indicated it actually belongs to anyone at all?

The baku, as per property law, have no legal right whatsoever to the planet.
You continue to ignore the fact that the Romulans, Klingons, Federation could easily have known about their presence and that the Baku inhabited and *improved* the planet for three hundred years. Even by our (by fed. standards archaic) laws, their situation is not nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

And our laws are not actually even a legitimate basis for Federation protocols in such a situation. We're talking about an alien species who don't even necessarily know the Romulans exist colonizing a planet which is clearly uninhabited with no indication whatsoever that anyone has claimed it.

And helping BILLIONS by evacuating 600 egoist elitists? The federation has the moral right to evict them, no matter how long you'll play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil'.
Whether they are egoist elitists or not does not change what is right. And violating anyone's rights, whether it's 1 person or a billion people is never right, no matter how many people you think you can help.

And it remains extremely suspect for dougherty to claim that these particles would even have such a major significance for the Federation. 24th century medicine is pratically miraculous already. The only major benefit the particles would bring to most people is an extended lifespan, in an age where people live beyond 100 already. You don't get to evict entire civilizations just because you want to stay young longer.

The canon facts state the federation kept the Cestus III colony - aka did not recognise the gorn right to it.
Because the Federation had actually colonized the planet and the Gorn hadn't. Not real politik. Adverse possession.

They also expressly state the planet the baku trespassed on is a federation planet.
That is the federation depicted in these cases - real-politik and all.
That is Dougherty's statement, is it not? A starfleet admiral is not the Federation's deciding authority in these matters.

You obviously want to turn the federation into a suicidal political entity that follows, with religious fanaticism, a set of rules you call 'moral' but are nothing of the sort (not evicting 600 trespassers to help BILLIONS? Really? To think you actually call that 'moral').
Well, in all fairness, your depiction of the federation is encountered in a few episodes/etc - just not relative to the aspects under discussion here.
I'm not turning the Federation into anything. I'm describing the Federation we've seen across hundreds of hours of television. You're inventing your own preferred federation that is never shown on screen.

And ignoring anyone's rights is always wrong. Period.

You have the right to your opinions, but not to your own facts.
The opinions you repeat and repeat (the baku are not trespassers, etc) are based on nothing but hand-waving and rhetoric; as such, they have no worth.
My opinions are fairly well supported by my arguments. Your opinions continue to be unsupported due to your repeated refusal to actual specify any of the specific reasons why the Baku are so 'obviously' trespassers or to adress in any meaningful way the clear differences between their extraordinary situation and your earth-based rules which were designed in a society where everything is much closer together and there is no possibility of outside parties who have no knowledge whatsoever of the overarching society that enforces the rules.

PS: After seeing the post above, re: ENT's augments episode, I checked that Ep's transcript and the Insurrection transcript for the word 'Romulan'. Unless my computer search function is broken, the word doesn't appear at all in the ENT mention of the Briar Patch and only appears in one conversation in Insurrection, where Picard and Dougherty are discussing the potential for technology to empower thugs.

So, it would seem, unless you have another source for the Briar Patch's provenance, that you are the one inventing your own facts with the repeated claim that the Patch clearly belonged to the Romulans when the Baku settled there.
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