Thread: The Son'a
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Old October 7 2013, 02:42 PM   #81
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Re: The Son'a

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
As for the baku - 600 people do not get to make their own laws and claim they have priority to the laws of the state they live in, then or now. Or do you think a neighborhood association has such competency? lol.
Without any power to strongarm their claim, all the baku have is the alpha/beta recognised treaties/laws to appeal to. And these treaties/laws are clear - the planet is federation property - as EXPRESSLY said in the movie.
The Federation laws you would apply to the Baku didn't exist when they arrived. I'm fairly certain Ex Post Facto is as taboo in the 24th century as it is today. The Romulan or Klingon laws were never applied. And the Federation's claim to the planet clearly assumed the planet was uninhabited, which it was not.
Romulan and klingon laws never applied? Really? And where did you get that - aside from your wishful thinking leading to hand-waving?

The baku trespassed on a romulan planet - meaning romulan law was applicable.
Then the planet became klingon - klingon law applied.
Then the planet became a federation planet - meaning federation law applied.

Now - about these laws:
Adverse possession is a law mostly applicable in modern liberal democracies.
Throughout human history, the majority of societies were oligarchic. Do you actually think the nobles allowed the peasants to acquire their land simply by occupying it? Good luck with that.

Do you actually think klingon and romulan laws allow trespassers to acquire romulan and klingon territory by trespassing on it? lol
Of course, the romulans and Klingons never found the baku, in order to conquer them, turning them into imperial subjects. So much for the baku not hiding (them hiding was even established in the movie - see below).

Possession nullifies unexcercised property only through the institution of 'adverse possession' (look it up). One of several conditions is that the possession is public, as opposed to hidden. And that this public, useful possession is exercised for a specific period, etc.

The baku acquired nothing by adverse possession. The federation is still federation property (and romulan and klingon before it) regardless f how ling the baku stayed hidden in their hole.
Demanding someone go out of their way to tell you they're living on your planet when they don't necessarily even have any way to know you claim the planet at all, since you're not doing a damn thing with it, isn't reasonable. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that you're living there and can clearly be seen living there (the Enterprise never had any problem picking up their settlement from orbit, did it?) is clearly open. And we've already covered the fact that the baku were exercising useful possession of the planet for longer than the federation has existed.
Now you're walking the path of the legalisms, I see.

First - that planet was NOT ownerless when the baku came to it. It was a romulan planet, then a klingon planet.

Second - the baku actively tried to hide in the briar patch. NOT public possession by any standard.
Even if the baku would not have actively tried to hide, they would NOT have exercised public possession if they didn't exercise even minimal diligence in making their claim known - as in, a beacon announcing their presence, or seeing if there are alien (romulan/klingon/federation) patrols in the area and contacting them; or contacting any ship they see in the area, exploring a little in order to ascertain the status of the planet, etc.

NO public possession (no useful possession - this includes several more conditions) = NO adverse possession.

Because the federation had the muscle to enforce their claim as superior to the gorn.
BTW, that's how the British took Australia and New Zeeland. The Dutch simply had the common sense to recognise the british claim and renounce their own, as opposed to coming with a treaty and starting a war.
The Federation isn't an empire that delights in enforcing its claim by brute force.
And now, you've turned to stereotyping and simplistic straw-men.

For example - Cestus III; the federation not enforcing a claim to that world would result in its strategic position seriously compromised, in possible millions/billions of federation citizens dead or conquered in the future. In these conditions, enforcing a claim to Cestus III IS the right thing to do.

The powers in the trekverse - klingons, romulans, dominion, tholians, borg, etc, etc - make soviet russia or 'the hermit kingdom' look very tame. Some of them make nazi germany, the mongol hordes or 'insert the nastiest historical empire you can think of' look very tame.
You think that, in that universe, not using real-politik at least some of the times (such as, when the future of billions is in the balance) will somehow turn your nation into a beacon of security and prosperity, as opposed to causing suffering and death for your people? lol.

Of course, with the baku affair, the federaiton has BOTH the legal right and the muscle to enforce that right. And the moral high ground.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

The baku did all they could to remain hidden - even said so in the movie.
Like I said, it has been a while. Could you provide some kind of quote regarding that. Because if they were trying to hide, they weren't doing that great a job of it, as I recall. How could they even attempt to hide themselves without using any advanced technology?
Have you even watched the movie, grendelsbayne?
Or do you blatantly contradict it knowingly, because the movie does not support your claims in this thread?

BTW, the federation knew the baku were not native - as Dougherty even expressly said. Meaning - the prime directive is not applicable - again, as expressly said in the movie.
Then I misremembered that. I've been entirely open about the fact that I haven't seen the film in quite a while. If I had a copy, I would rewatch it before continuing the discussion, but I don't.

So how did the Federation believe that the Baku were supposedly so primitive, knowing that they had actually immigrated to the planet relatively recently?
The baku were hiding in the briar patch from the universe, essentially (see their backstory from the movie, etc). In 'enterprise', the augments briefly contemplated hiding in the briar patch, as well - as the name indicated, it's a pretty good hiding place.

Dougherty expressly told Picard the baku are not native and the prime directive doesn't apply. How did the federation think the baku got to the planet? Not specified in the movie; there are several possibilities: the federation knew the baku are not really primitive, aliens brought the baku there and then disappeared (this happens often in the trekverse), etc.

Next time, watch the movie before coming with your unsupported claims.
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; October 7 2013 at 02:58 PM.
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