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Old October 4 2013, 03:36 AM   #84
Re: Yesterday's Enterprise: How is the Federation Losing So Badly?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If the navy had to send science ships out into hostile areas then a warship would tag along.
Starfleet wouldn't, and doesn't. As far as we've seen in the 23rd century, ALL of their ships are fully equipped for scientific missions.
Except for the Defiant, which needed the Runabout Rubicon to do the science work. ("One Little Ship").

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The evidence is that Starfleet at the time of TOS and the TOS movies was a Military that also had scientific and exploration programs.
And still you lack any evidence for your assertion that a significant part of the fleet was NOT involved in those scientific programs. Whether they are a military or not doesn't matter; the question is, how much of Starfleet was PURELY military?
And you still lack any evidence that a significant part of the fleet was NOT involved in those military programs. The percentage of military or scientific doesn't matter; the answer is that Starfleet was called "The Military" in TWOK and identified with Military Forces in "Errand of Mercy".

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
In her question, yes. It doesn't change the fact that her question is irrelevant to the actual negotiations.
It's perfectly relevant since she wanted to know if Starfleet was affected, beyond just the stations.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Correct. She therefore has NO BASIS to ask that question other than simple alarmism. It's a strawman, nothing more.
You're the one with the strawman. Her question is perfectly valid even if you don't like the answer.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No. The answer was that certain programs would NOT be effected. Bill doesn't even confirm that your putative "pure military" programs WOULD be affected. Even the filming script doesn't bear that out.
By answering that CERTAIN programs would not be affected it tells us that the REMAINING programs will be affected. Since Starfleet was The Military back then, it makes it easy to point to that being affected.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
On which you continue to equivocate. This is not a rhetorical question: Exactly which part of Starfleet ISN'T involved in scientific research and exploration?
The correct question is can the Scientific and Exploration programs function without the Military program?
Begging the question: IS there a separate military program? No such distinction has ever been made in Star Trek, especially in TUC.
Colonel West is wearing a Starfleet uniform and he's rather military. As you've pointed out in previous posts, the MACO's, aka military of the Enterprise-era were military and sported ground-based ranks. Kirk has called himself a soldier in TOS and in TWOK, Starfleet was called "The Military". Like I said, you're the one who lacks evidence here.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
So again: what part of Starfleet ISN'T involved in scientific research and exploration?
That's an odd question given that the military leverages scientific research and exploration for tactical and strategic goals (see "One Little Ship".) To answer you, it's the part that isn't necessary to be always available to wage war against the Klingons. It's the part that is no longer needed that leads to Picard in TNG's time to claim that Starfleet is not a military
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