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Old September 27 2013, 04:05 PM   #74
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
That's not what I am saying. I am saying that traces of human civilisation will last. I've never been under the impression that buildings will survive much as they are today.
You thought the Chernobyl sarcophagus would be intact in 50 million years. You've never made it clear to me what you think you mean by "traces of human civilizations". I'm thinking maybe a trace element enrichment in some rocks; are you thinking an entire concrete sarcophagus or a stump of the pyramids will be around in 50 million years? Our definitions of "trace" may be very different.

There are plenty of environments that could protect it. We've seen these sort of environments protect human remains. My point was that the same luck that protected dinosaur eggshells for millions of years could also protect traces of our civilisation.
Human remains and metals don't react to the same environment in the same way.

Probably about the same that we'd have fossilized dinosaur shit.
Wrong. You're off by orders-of-magnitude.

And yet we don't see wood and clay being used for skyscrapers, nor for the buildings that are used to develop our high technology. If the Voth (or their ancestors) developed a spacefaring civilisation on Earth, then they didn't do it with wood and clay huts.
Why would Voth necessarily build skyscrapers? You don't need a skyscraper to launch rockets into orbit.

You said that we cannot assume ANYTHING about an alien culture, yet you are assuming that aliens even HAVE a culture. You are making an assumption yourself!
Of course I'm making assumptions. Are assumptions bad? No, as long as they're clearly laid out. So, I apologize for not clearly stating that I assume an intelligent, tool-using civilization would have culture.


Are you even reading what I write?
Yes, I am. If I weren't, I wouldn't do you the courtesy of responding. Are you making yourself clear? I'm very intelligent. If you're not making yourself clear, the failure of communication is on you, not me.

I said that if we examine the healed injury we might be able to determine if it healed naturally or not. And if we find that the bone healed in a way that would not have happened without advanced medical aide, then we can determine that the animal was intelligent (or at the least was operated on by an intelligent veterinarian).
Arm-waving. Nothing to see here but pointless arm-waving.

Please read what I actually write, not what you think I write.
I do read what you write. Are you writing what you think?

And two things are clear to me.
That many? I'm impressed! But you shouldn't brag - it's not polite.

Firstly, that you have not provided a single shred of evidence to support your position that all modern indications of Human civilization will decay to nothing despite the fact that we know for a fact that eggshells can survive for millions of years.
What evidence would you like? I'm not interested in digging through the relevant scientific research literature to post research articles that would be above your head anyway, particularly since I doubt you'd read them. Even if you would read them and understand them, it's far more work than I have time to do. You've not made clear to me what you would consider "evidence" anyway, and I did implicitly ask earlier in the thread. Let me know what you think would constitute evidence and I'll maybe see what I can do. No promises.

Secondly, that you do not read what I say, because i never once claimed that buildings will survive intact. My claim has always been that some trace of modern civilisation will survive. You are the one that leaped to the conclusion that I meant a rusty car being dug up in 60 million years or something.
Don't accuse me of not reading. If I didn't read your posts, I'd not bother responding to them. If you're not making yourself clear to me, then perhaps you need to communicate better. Your "Chernobyl sarcophagus" question, and subsequent incredulity that it would not be intact in the far future, made it seem to me that you thought it would last 50 million years. It won't.

Besides, you've posted earlier

Tiberius wrote: View Post
If you'd read the meaning of my post, you will discover that I meant that it is almost impossible that there will come a day when human bones are the only evidence left of human civilisation. We have created structures designed to last for a very long time. The pyramids, the Great Wall of China. they may not survive in a form we can recognise, but an investigation will reveal non-natural origins. Other examples could include the vast road networks across many countires, or the foundations built to support the many absolutely huge buildings that we have constructed. Also dams. Even if they are reduced to apparent rocks, an investigation will show that they are very unusual rocks.

The fact is that any space faring culture will leave behind evidence of that culture in some form.
Have we really designed anything to last a "really long time"? What structures would those be? And what is a "really long time" to you?

The pyramids, the Great Wall, dams, building foundations, none will survive intact or even recognizable over millions and millions of years. How could they? What would make them special enough to last? The pyramids and the Great Wall are just rocks, and if whole mountains can erode over millions of years, what's going to leave those intact? And what would be a recognizable trace of them? How would someone tell a rock from the eroded pyramids from a rock that was never part of the pyramids? Why should building foundations be preserved when even things underground are subject to geological processes that will destroy them?

Ponder those questions, and consider what assumptions you're making.
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