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Old September 27 2013, 01:37 AM   #304
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Excelsior Technical Manual - Revived!

This whole transwarp topic has sent me back and forth. A lot.

Workbee wrote: View Post
I like this! This however made me think -- going back to the Transwarp subject; as you know it really bothers me that a full scale mock up was made before thoroughly testing the concept smaller scale. Earlier we talked about a compromise, where it was only a partial failure.
A great point, which I might mitigate by further discussing some test vehicles and depending which way I go with transwarp it might be more believable.

Workbee wrote: View Post
Another thought occurred to me. What if the Excelsior in ST III functioned just as well as it was expected to -- that the limits and extent that they could achieve Transwarp were known prior to starship construction. In other words, prior to ST III, they knew the Transwarp experiment would not result in the "infinite speed" or breaking the "warp 10 barrier", but kept the project name for PR.

In reality, Transwarp was dropped for political reasons -- Transwarp as a concept was simply a plot device to allow our heros to be the underdog in TSFS. After TSFS, the producers had little interest in the concept, and the production team of TNG seemed to consciously distance themselves from many of the concepts from the films.

When trying to divine an in-universe rationalization, I find myself wanting to mirror the real world reason. In other words, since transwarp was abandoned for political reasons production wise, why not assume it was abandoned for political reasons in universe wise too? I don't know if this is a good approach -- this may in fact be the wrong thing to do, allowing the production reality to shape the universe that we want to be "above" such considerations.
Now the notion that the "transwarp barrier" can never be broken is actually maybe the best way of rationalizing this that I've yet heard. Then we just pretend "Threshold" played out... differently.

Workbee wrote: View Post
Yet in my mind, it makes a certain sense. Kirks actions in TSFS contributed to a very tense and sensitive political situation (the Genesis project and planet) blowing up in Starfleet's face. Though Kirk's actions in TVH led to his actions being all but pardoned, we have little indication that the overall political situation was resolved or even improved. Rather, it was simply deferred due to a more imminent crisis.

I could see Starfleet, in the immediate aftermath of events of TSFS, putting a hold on Excelsior trials as the leaders scrambled to contain and address the political fallout from all sides. Indeed, a freeze on R&D may have been imposed on any cutting edge technology that could be construed as providing a tactical or combative advantage. Agreements such as Federations abstention from cloaking technology might have had their genesis (no pun intended) here.

When all the dust had settled, and the federation had brought some stability to the situation, an edict may have come down to discontinue use of the term "transwarp." Starfleet would then quietly close out the project, officially labeling it a "failure" (which technically it was determined to be long before the Excelsior was built), and discretely make improvements under the guise of enhancements to "conventional" warp drive. And Admiral Harry Morrow, the man who spearheaded the project, quietly stepped down from his role as Starfleet Commander.

The hit to morale would be substantial. During this decade, and in spite of their efforts to the contrary, Starfleet found itself becoming perceived as more and more militaristic. Border disputes, raids on colonies, bottlenecks on the supply of resources pushed Starfleet deployments more into this role.

Excelsior project was heralded as a beacon of light, with hopes that it would bring exploration and discovery back to the forefront, returning Starfleet to a new scientific era. Alas, what began as a shining talisman to the future soon became an albatross of the past. Starfleet would not see a return to this era for another 80 years. It is not without irony that Excelsior's commissioning plate came to have the quote "No matter where you go, there you are"

To be clear, exploration and discover were never abandoned. Several new cultures were discovered and relationships forged. This issue was simply that Starfleets overlapping roles of exploration and protection, which always necessitating careful communication and education for both member and non member interactions, continued to become more blurred and nebulous during this era.
Dude, you're awesome. This is all gold. Let the rewrites commence.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Just to point out: the Enterprise is said to have exceeded warp ten in "That Which Survives" among other cases, and the Orion ship from "Journey to Babel" was also traveling at warp ten.

I never much cared for the "infinite velocity" theory of transwarp drive. I still believe it refers to something a lot more esoteric than that; say, the ability to sustain fractional warp factors for extended periods of time.
As Nightowl noted, the scale shift was about to take place but I think your misunderstanding indicates I haven't adequately explained that. I'll work on that. And I meant to include the fractional thing too. Oopsy. I'll work that in the next draft.

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ Agreed. Always disliked the Warp 10 paradox as well, partly because one of Trek's worst episodes ("Threshold") featured it, but also because it was too reminiscent of HHGTTG's Infinite Improbability Drive and, therefore, I could never take it seriously.
Well, I tried to make it make some degree of sense by making it a jump drive... I actually didn't think it would work like the IID. But I think it's just not working.

Workbee wrote: View Post
The thing I don't understand is why they had to go with "infinite speed" for warp 10. Why not just make it approach an infinite energy requirement, but have a finite speed (sort of like the speed of light does). Especially considering that traveling at this infinite speed in threshold somehow kept them in the Delta Quadrant. What the heck was that in Where No Man Has Gone before then? Infinity plus a few? Very strange definition of infinity here. Unless we are to believe that they somehow lapped the infinite number of times and somehow by pure chance ended up back at the same galaxy, relatively close to their starting location, which is even more absurd. Even if it wasn't a bad episode, the depiction of Transwarp was so self-contradictory that it is difficult to take much away from it. Clearly they have a misunderstanding of what infinite really means. Since it is clear the creators didn't understand the concept of infinite speed, I see no reason that we have to definition of warp ten. They weren't traveling infinite speed, so this episode essentially tells us, contrary to the characters assertions, that warp ten is a finite speed.

OK -- I'll get off my soapbox now
No no, it's a good soapbox.

Mytran wrote: View Post
I had the same thought with the "leaving point A" and "popping back at point B" description.

However, I did like the qualification of "apparent" infinite speed over "actual" infinite, which never made any sense. However, I can see how Neelix got confused
Thank you sir.

I think overall I need less Braga science and more Sternbach science. Stand by for a re-revised chapter two, folks.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
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