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Old September 26 2013, 05:47 AM   #76
Re: Yesterday's Enterprise: How is the Federation Losing So Badly?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
We don't HAVE to make the comparison since many of the destroyers built during the cold war are STILL IN SERVICE with foreign navies. Thus, the comparison remains fully valid.
Then you shouldn't have needed to object to the comparison in the first place.
What I'm saying is it's not really a "comparison" since that is actually the state of global naval power anyway. The foreign equivalents of the AEGIS ships are all owned by people who are nominally ALLIES of the United States. Those same destroyers are far more likely to engage in combat against warships from the previous generation where they already have the overwhelming advantage.
If you're moving the tech of the "cold war destroyers" forward to modern day then you change the conditions of the comparison. In this case, the overwhelming advantage will be less since the older destroyers now have access to upgraded tech.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because I agree with Akimoto's actual point: the whole reason we needed large fleets in the past was because the navy's mission REQUIRED a large fleet to carry it out. The capabilities of these newer ships means the same mission can be accomplished with a much smaller number of ships with much smaller crews.
Did you ever stop to wonder why the navy's mission REQUIRED a LARGE fleet to carry it out? Back in the 70's the navy underwent a 300 ship drop and had difficulty maintaining its commitments. Even today they want more ships.

Nob Akimoto said, "A modern DDG could wipe the floor with a squadron of Cuban Missile Crisis era frigates and destroyers, or cruisers for that matter." I agreed in general and added that "ten modern DDGs WILL wipe the floor with a squadron of those ships." The reason is that a single modern DDG can have a bad day - mechanical or software failure and get mission killed from the comparison when she can't fully defend herself. Ten guarantees a victory whereas a single ship doesn't give you any ability to absorb losses.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I've watched every episode of TOS ever filmed and I have never seen an episode that begins with the narration "These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its five year mission: to change missions as the needs dictate..."
Watched every episode?

Kirk's words:
KIRK: Mission, routine investigation and report as per ship surgeon's medical log.
KIRK: My mission is to establish diplomatic relations between your people and mine.
KIRK: Mister Spock, our mission is to protect this colony, to get the pergium moving again. This is not a zoological expedition.
KIRK: Gentlemen, my government has informed me that the Klingons are expected to move against your planet with the objective of making it a base of operation against the Federation. My mission, frankly, is to keep them from doing it.
KIRK: No, I'm not. The mission of the Enterprise is to seek out and contact alien life.
Captain's log, stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella Four. ... Our mission, obtain a mining agreement. But we've discovered a Klingon agent has preceded us to the planet.
Captain's log, stardate 3478.2. On a routine mission to re-supply the experimental colony
Captain's log... Our mission, historical research.
Captain's Log: Stardate 4372.5. On a top-secret diplomatic mission...
Captain's log, Stardate 1513.1. ... Ship's surgeon McCoy and myself are now beaming down to the planet's surface. Our mission, routine medical examination of archaeologist Robert Crater and his wife Nancy.
Captain's log, stardate 5730.2. The planet Ariannus is vital as a transfer point on regular space commercial lanes. It has been attacked by a bacterial invasion which threatens to render it lifeless unless checked. Our mission, to decontaminate it.
etc, etc.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which sets them apart from Starfleet, which CONDUCTS scientific and exploration programs on its own initiative, using its own ships and resources that are often equipped BY DESIGN to participate in those programs.
Superficially. If the navy had to send science ships out into hostile areas then a warship would tag along.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That still implies that scientific and exploration programs are not part of Starfleet's normal functioning. There is no evidence that this is even REMOTELY the case.
The evidence is that Starfleet at the time of TOS and the TOS movies was a Military that also had scientific and exploration programs. It's in the dialogue so the evidence is there.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Right: every asset that Starfleet has that ISN'T based on the neutral zone outposts. Had the Khitomer conference taken place 30 years earlier, that would have included the Enterprise.
Since the Military Aide included Starfleet specifically in her question then ships would be included. In anycase, it wouldn't be hard to defund or reduce the military programs in favor of their science and exploration. The result is the Starfleet that we see in TNG that is focused on science and exploration.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
So what? Starfleet sent it into combat. So even their science vessels are combat-ready.
To use your example, Hanson never said "We're coming with every frontline and heavily armed ship to assist."

He does say, "every available starship to assist." That'd include anything that can move and stick phaser rifles out to shoot with

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Spock and the CinC knew (since the CinC would likely have to sign off on it.) The Military Aide and Cartright asking doesn't make their questions questionable
It means their questions are not valid concerns based on the reality of the talks. Because:
1) They don't know anything ABOUT those talks and are just finding out about it now and
2) What they HAVE been told makes no mention of "mothballing the Starfleet." It could have been any random question in the universe and it would still not reflect the facts.
They haven't been told anything about mothballing Starfleet until the Military Aide asked it. The answer was some of Starfleet would get affected, but not the science and exploration programs. There isn't anything wrong with their questions and answers other than that you apparently don't like the answers.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
since the CinC answered it with the correct information
On which you continue to equivocate. This is not a rhetorical question: Exactly which part of Starfleet ISN'T involved in scientific research and exploration?
The correct question is can the Scientific and Exploration programs function without the Military program? The answer is yes, for many years until Starfleet gets their ass handed to them by the Borg and Dominion and they pivot to restart their military program.
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