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Old September 21 2013, 09:55 AM   #60
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Yesterday's Enterprise: How is the Federation Losing So Badly?

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
First, Guinan's line about 43 billion casualties is in reference to the entire war. Presumably this includes Klingon as well as Federation casualties. It's a figure from nearly 20 years of fighting, which the characters repeatedly refer to as being the case. Now they might be exaggerating, but it's clear the conflict had been waging for a long while, certainly longer than the career of NCC-1701-D. (Stated to be 4 years in service at this point.)
40 billion deaths over 20 years = 2 billion a year on average. Even split between both sides it would be more than all the starship crews of a 6,000 ship fleet of 500 crew each.

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Second, if the Klingons had managed to so thoroughly route the Federation early, there's very little likelihood that the conflict could drag on for 20 years, much less allow the Federation to construct brand new and gigantic starships like the Enterprise. We also know that technology progressed in those two decades to the point where the Galaxy-class had a substantial superiority to the Ambassador and that Picard's warship Enterprise could have easily destroyed the 4 warbirds attacking Narendra III. That's not a state that got knocked out easily in the first few years of the war. If anything that's a state fighting total war for a long, long time in a conflict of attrition.
Probably not a rout, but it's possible the early years of the war resulted in high losses on both sides resulting in borders being pulled back to the core worlds and then settling into a war of attrition. This would still allow both sides to manufacture new ships. We know at the 20 year mark Starfleet had lost half their ships but that number likely fluctuated over the years since they were still manufacturing ships.

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
The Federation's tactical training by 2366 was evidently far superior to anything taught in the 2330s/2340s, assuming Castillo wasn't just humoring Yar to flirt with her.
Castillo as a non-wartime helmsman might not have had as much tactical training compared to Yar who's Starfleet had been fighting a war for 20 years would have emphasized war fighting skills.

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
But at the same time, the Federation's tactical abilities (Or at least Garrett's) were sufficient to survive a four to one odds battle against Romulan warships sufficiently long enough for both the Klingons and the Federation to know what had happened to Narendra III.
It might have been as simple as showing up to get destroyed and have the debris of the E-C found. In the altered history, there was no trace of the E-C so no evidence that she was there at all at Narendra 3.

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
We also know that the Klingons and Cardassians had fought an 18 year war at some point before 2370 (from the Betreka Nebula Incident).
According to Garak it was a "skirmish" and Bashir made fun saying it lasted "18 years". We don't know how much actual fighting the Cardassians and Klingons had or if it was even a "war".

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
We also know that the Federation had a fair share of conflicts in the early-mid 24th century. The ones we've heard as "wars" were with the Cardassians and Tzenkethi, and a series of border conflicts with the Talarians. We also know that the Tholians had destroyed a number of Federation outposts, like what happened with Kyle Riker.
Didn't the Feds and Cardassians stalemate during the Cardassian War? Did these conflicts take place post-2240?

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Further, even if large parts of the fleet active circa 2293 was mothballed after the Khitomer Conference, we know that Starfleet was given sufficient resources to go around building new upgrades of the Excelsior class. We know that they go from decommissioning Enterprise-A somewhere around Stardate 9529.1 and launching Enterprise-B on 9715.5. (Anywhere between a couple months and a couple years).

By the 24th century we're treated to dozens upon dozens of Excelsior and Miranda-class ships which were "top of the line" circa TUC. So even if a portion of the older ships were mothballed, Starfleet had more than made up for their loss by the 2320s-2340s. They had also commissioned substantially larger ships like the Ambassador-class ships which were as much a boost in size over Excelsior as Excelsior was over Enterprise.
Although the Federation built more ships (as it should, assuming they were expanding) were they better at fighting? The ending to TUC doesn't show the Excelsior to have more ability to kill a BOP than the Enterprise-A did. And as we've seen in the Dominion War ships like the Lakota in "Way of the Warrior" had to have her weapons upgraded to be competitive in the firepower department. So even though more ships were built and of the bigger variety, they were not necessarily built for combat without having to go back in for upgrades.


Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Finally Yar in "Yesterday's Enterprise" seems to know a LOT about the capabilities of Romulan ships, giving Castillo a thorough overview of what they need to do to actually defeat the 4 Romulan ships. Given that Starfleet in the "standard" timeline had no extensive contact with Romulans from 2311 to 2364,so there's SOMETHING that gave them substantial knowledge on Romulan tactical capabilities by 2366 in the altered timeline. An expanded war where everyone from the Cardassians, Tzenkethi, Sheliak, Talarians, Tholians, and Romulans were taking shots at the Federation sounds more likely as a way for them to be ground down over 20 years.
Sure, that's very possible. They'd be circling like vultures after watching both the Klingons and Feds wear down each sides forces for some years and then jump in when they felt it was advantageous to do so.
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