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Old September 19 2013, 10:11 AM   #267
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
At the initial explosion frame it's glare.
It's not glare. It's the same momentarily illumination that belies the impact point on the bird of prey. On Enterprise -- a much larger ship -- The illumination there follows the torpedo's path across the hull and is present BEFORE the torpedo detonates; at the moment of impact it brightens only slightly before being swallowed by the fireball of the subsequent explosion.
It's glare. For it to be an explosion then the explosion point would illuminate everything in a spherical direction. If it can illuminate the entire starboard side of the bridge module as you suggest it can reach the impulse deck and illuminate it as brightly as well.

Because it does not, the explosion point cannot be behind/starboard of the bridge but further back, portside of the impulse deck.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which would have been necessary only if the old ship had actually outlived it's usefulness and was DUE for replacement in the first place.
Well then the Enterprise could not be obsolete if she's sent on a high profile escort mission. So obsolete isn't one of the possible reasons. Financial, political, or something else, yes.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Except that, earlier, Valeris says the crew is "turning their own quarters inside-out, but the killers may still be among them."
The boots scene with Dax comes later, after Chekov find the blood on the transporter. Spock orders the search expanded out and now everyone available is searching everywhere, including the corridor panels, lockers, clothes area, etc. At this point it is difficult to say it's their "own" quarters.
SPOCK: Now we expand our search to include uniforms.
CHEKOV: All uniforms?
We see earlier that their are at least 9 bunk beds in 3 free standing columns in a room. The scene where we have the boots there were 3 bunks next to a wall. That could boost the room capacity to 12. There were about 9 people dressed as "crew" and 2 officers not including the main cast so those present could be bunking in there or just guys that were opening everything up hanging around.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Since when do yeoman rate their own quarters they don't have to share with anyone?
We saw Yeoman Rand have her own quarters in "Charlie X". We did not see any other yeoman quarters during TOS, AFAIK. TUC shows crew bunk beds and "Flashback" showed the Excelsior also using bunk beds.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Previous Enterprises never used them (even Crewman Daniels has his own private cabin on NX-01) nor subsequent Enterprises where even Chief O'Brien seems to have regular-sized quarters big enough to raise a small family. What's do different about Kirk's era?
Different ships, different era, different requirements. Sulu's Excelsior also had bunks.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because for few ships we see in DETAIL, it's obvious that they weren't. Stargazer, for example, has LCARS computers sharing space with 2280s duotronic circuitry and even some of its most basic features -- turbolifts, for example -- are unchanged from its original launch configuration.

For early-model Constellations like Hathaway and Stargazer, that's probably the limits of their capacity to upgrade; the former was on the ragged edge of serviceability in the 24th century while the latter was effectively already in mothballs. More advanced designs like the Excelsiors don't seem to have this problem and can accept LCARS conversion just fine.
Then how does that account for the Enterprise-A which if it was a new build would've been close to the USS Hathaway/Stargazer's age. If she was a redesign/upgrade then she'd be the second known conversion. In either case, where do we see on the Stargazer or the Hathaway the use of LCARS?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The absence of the Constitution class in the 24th century suggests they could not handle LCARS at all. This is probably because the intermediate step before LCARS (multitronics?) introduced on Excelsior were incredibly difficult to integrate into the older Constitution class.
It's possible that the cost of continuous upgrading outweighed keeping the Constitutions around. Although I'm not finding any examples of LCARS on the Hathaway or Stargazer so any screencaps would be helpful.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Speaking from experience? A load-bearing bulkhead in an inconvenient place that cannot be further compromised to accommodate cable trunking and therefore must be bypassed by an elaborate workaround; later designs would have omitted the bulkhead altogether to allow for easier swapping in/out of computer equipment, but on the older design you have to physically reconstruct the entire compartment in order to fit the new component inside. You can't usually get away with that more than two or three times in a ship's lifespan, and from what we can tell, the Constitutions had already done this at least twice already before the TMP conversion.
Speaking from observation, the TOS Enterprise saw more than two changes prior to her conversion especially around the engine room and running new pipes and circuitry around the ship didn't appear to be an issue. In anycase, if based on your argument above that the Constellations didn't upgrade much then the Enterprise-A would've also not needed to upgrade much as it would've had the same systems given that it was built much later / around the time the Hathaway / Stargazer were built.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
According to "Brothers" the Repulse is on an active mission of exploration. Also, the Hood's Captain DeSoto is a household name in Starfleet; moreover, the Hood -- a late-model Excelsior type -- is described in various episodes as receiving systems upgrades to stay current with the rest of the fleet. So even if Hood is at least 40 years old, it has upgrade potential that the Constellations and Mirandas -- both much newer than the Constitution class -- unquestionably lack.
Which episodes described the Hood as receiving systems upgrades?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Of course it was designed for new technology (that's what it RECEIVED, isn't it?). What it wasn't designed for is FUTURE technology. Considering the refit only took about three years to complete AND considering how radical that transformation really was, that means all of the systems that were installed on Enterprise (with the possible exception of its warp drives) were fully developed and mature technologies before the ship ever entered space dock. The TMP refit didn't accomplish much, in that case, except to bring the ship up to parity with the rest of the 2270s fleet.

Within only ten short years with the release of newer designs and new technologies being developed the ship was AGAIN starting to show its age, and this time further upgrades were no longer feasible.
The question then is what future technology couldn't she take? As you've pointed out, not much changed on the Hathaway and Stargazer.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And the answer -- once again -- is that Constellation's saucer is five decks thick and considerably wider than the Constitutions. The Miranda's saucer extends into that larger aft compartment which is, again, about five decks thick and large enough to accommodate an entire engineering section.
That's what I was getting at -the Reliant and Constellation couldn't fit one either and had to build an expansion to house it which would be equivalent to the Constitution's engineering hull. So saying the Constitution's saucer was too small to fit a main reactor is true in all three cases and they still had to build something else to accommodate it.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Let's consider the latter case for a moment: it could very well be that the original design for the Miranda (or the ships they wound up replacing) were just saucers with warp nacelles bolted onto them, not unlike the Mayflower type starships of the JJ-Verse. The addition of more powerful reactor types and the recognized need for greater cargo/shuttle storage neccesistated the construction of an "engineering wing" to house all of that equipment. Constellation wouldn't have this problem because it's ALREADY large enough to accommodate all of it in a single hull.
Of course and one of the reasons IMO that the Constitutions didn't continue on was simply lack of cargo space compared to the Reliant's and Constellations. The engineering hull simply wasn't big enough.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Or maybe the TMP Enterprise is simply larger than we've been told. Its "official" length isn't canon, after all, and various posters here have demonstrated conclusively that most of the ship's components (especially the drop-door in engineering) wouldn't actually fit inside of it unless it was at least 340 meters long.
Still, the long corridor in front of the engineering room would push it back which would prevent the intermix shaft from passing in between the torpedo tubes, even on a ship as large as 355m.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That's mainly because the torpedo bay didn't explode. A phaser beam tore into it and set the compartment on fire, but it didn't damage the torpedoes or detonate anything else.
Even if it did explode like the Reliant's pod, the Enterprise has got a far thicker neck than the Reliant's thin rollbar. If the Reliant's pod didn't get blown clean off, I am doubting that the Enterprise would be any worse.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Those power conduits are still in the hull though. It's not any different than the Enterprise's horizontal shaft going to the nacelle pylons except that there's alot more internal piping on the Reliant.
But the internal piping on Reliant DOESN'T have to go through the engine room
The piping has to connect to the vertical shaft somewhere in the engine room.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
or through any part of the ship inhabitted by humans.
The Enterprise's horizontal shaft doesn't pass through any "inhabited" parts of the ship unless you count that access area that can be sealed by the dropdown door. If that's what you're counting as "inhabited" then the Reliant would have the same problem.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If you haven't noticed, this also the case for the Enterprise-D, which has its plasma conduits leading AWAY from engineering and through sealed trunks that cut through the hull without sharing the habitable environment of the ship.
I can't comment as I don't know what the conduit looks like beyond the point it branches off the vertical core.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Is there any indication that they were designed that way though?
Impossible to know, since we know next to nothing about the Excelsiors. OTOH, the presence of the bulge ITSELF is rather difficult to explain, especially considering the odd skinniness of its secondary hull in that section. If the bulge contains a central reactor to feed the nacelles, the skinny hull makes a lot more sense: the engine room would be BENEATH the bulge, and the entire reactor compartment is simply placed at a standoff distance from the rest of the ship in case of a major radiation leak.
We do have a scene in TSFS where we catch the edge of a vertical intermix shaft so it's likely going to resemble the Enterprise's engineering. In Generations we can see the MSDS show what appears to be a vertical shaft behind the main sensor/deflector in the engineering hull but not one in the hump.
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