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Old September 15 2013, 05:27 AM   #258
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No, YOU have a GUESS at what it would look like in that position.
No, WE have an EXAMPLE of what it would look like in that position as shown in a screen capture of a spark at a later frame.
The spark is considerably brighter than the torpedo impact and is reflected by a larger portion of the hull. It remains a guess on your part that the two have similar illumination characteristics.
The spark is actually placed between the impulse deck and bridge module and is lighting up the front of the impulse deck as EXPECTED. The torpedo explosion frame does not have that characteristic and cannot be where you think it is.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Anyway, I'm not going any further into this until you can explain why both the moment of impact flash manages to light up the starboard side of the bridge dome if the impact point itself is on the port side.
At the initial explosion frame it's glare. The 2nd frame of the explosion is gas as you can also see it wrap around to the bridge port side. Until you can explain why the 1st frame doesn't light up the impulse deck you can't prove it exploding between the impulse deck and bridge.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The reason is pretty self evidence, considering they replaced the ship with the Enterprise-B only a year later.
That doesn't tell us anything beyond that they had planned another ship with the Enterprise name.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It IS obsolete and falling apart. It just doesn't LOOK that way unless you look at it closely.
Ah. It's just when you described it as a "rusty old piece of shit you couldn't sell it for a candy bar" it describes something that easily appears falling apart and rusted out and not something that would require close inspection.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Not exactly the same bunk, but after they find one of the gravity boots in the locker of "Crewman Dax", there are fifteen people standing with Spock and staff. Ten of them are enlisted crew, the other four are Spoock, Uhura, Chekov and Mister Tibbs (Valeris is off screen). Behind the crewmen on the right we see three bunks (one of the noncoms is sitting on the top bunk).

We know why the senior officers are there, but why are the noncoms hanging around? It's pretty obvious: because this is their quarters.
I thought it was just as obvious the extras noncoms were part of the crew assigned to search for these boots and they were standing around out of curiosity.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
But even if you assume the ship is NOT hot bunking... why, all of a sudden, is the Enterprise fitting three racks in crew quarters when it's actual crew complement hasn't changed at all? We already know the enlisted men on the TOS ship all had their own quarters (Janice Rand in particular)
Janice Rand is the only noncom that we know in TOS that had her own cabin and she was Kirk's assigned yeoman. Did we see other noncoms have their own room or was it just a perk of being the Captain's Yeoman? On the same vein, why does Excelsior also have the bunking rooms? She's a bigger ship with far greater volume but her crew is what, 100-300 more than Enterprise's?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
as did the crews on the much more primitive NX-01. Three racks in a single room would seem to be an unusual situation aboard a starship, and the hot-bunking implied in this scene would be HIGHLY unusual. The most likely explanation, IMO, is that extensive repairs and modifications to keep the ship up to date has taken up a larger and larger portion of its internal space and forced more than half of the crew out of their normal quarters.
Or a simpler explanation is that noncoms normally get bunks.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The problem with this claim is that the ships contemporary with Enterprise were never upgraded internally. It seems that Stargazer and possibly Lantree received a few new consoles and some systems as part of its LCARS conversion, but we have no idea when that conversion was done or why or even HOW. It's not as if we saw the rebuilt USS Reliant running around with the fleet in DS9, now is it?
How do we know they weren't upgraded internally beyond a few panels? If the panels were converted, what's to stop them from upgrading systems all the way into TNG/DS9? If you look at the Lantree, her small crew would suggest considerable changes in order to not need the large crews of the movie period.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
We never got to see the bridge of the Repulse at all, but this ship as well as the Lantree are both seen functioning as courier/transport ships, basically ferrying people and material from one place to another. It's highly unlikely they have the chops for a full-fledged exploration mission like the (arguably much newer) USS Hood.
According to "Tin Man", all the Hood ever does is go back and forth between starbases We're not given a good look at the Repulse or the Hood so it's unknown if the two ships were or were not capable of the same missions.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Here you run into the problem that space ships are not boats. The "hull" of a spacecraft is analogous to the main pressure vessel that keeps in the atmosphere and houses the ship's habitable volume. Since the TMP Enterprise is said to be a "refit" and not a brand new starship,
Both Decker and Scotty state that the Enterprise was redesigned and refitted. Most if not all of the ship was redesigned so you can't really say the ship was not designed for the new technology.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
that means something of the original was left in the design. It obviously wasn't the "spaceframe" as such because the new ship has a different shape as the old. But the pressure vessel -- IRL, a fairly expensive and difficult component to build -- could easily have been preserved, with Starfleet replacing the outer hull plating, nacelle pylons and other internal/external components while slightly modifying the pressure hull.
It would be quite illuminating if you can show how this pressure vessel would work going from the TOS and TMP versions.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No. Constellation, for example, has a five-deck saucer and a big chunk of space between its impulse engines that could house the reactor in its entirety (assuming the same powerplant as the Constitution class). Miranda's aft section is also about five decks thick and the space between its shuttle bays is almost as wide as the Enterprise's secondary hull.
You had said that a Constitution's saucer would be too small to fit a main reactor and I agree and question wouldn't that be the same for Reliant and/or Constellation. In the Reliant's case it would be same problem and they had to build an extended hull to accommodate that and the shuttlebays. The Constellation just enlarged the saucer height-wise to get it to fit.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
While it may seem like they end up having the same volume, the cylindrical secondary hull actually gives you less USEFUL volume with the same dimensions.
Of course, boxy gives you more volume in that case.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, the explosion on the bridge happened immediately after Kirk's torpedo hit their port nacelle. It seemed to affect the engineering compartment as well, but we don't really know why.

The engineering crew also survived just fine. Again, after the pod was destroyed Kirk turns his attention on the port nacelle; phaser blast there, and we see Khan's crew falling over railings in engineering. Then the torpedo strike, and the bridge explodes.
I re-watched it and you are correct. NM about the torpedo pod being a danger to the crew.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Compare with what would have happened to the ENTERPRISE if the torpedo bay had exploded in such a way. Apart from potentially decapitating the entire ship,
It might not be so bad. Reliant's torpedo pod exploded but it stayed attached to the rollbar. And the rollbar didn't seem too damaged. Enterprise's neck is thicker than the rollbar so it might not be as bad.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
the intermix chamber runs BETWEEN those tubes, and the torpedo deck is not more than six meters above main engineering.
Well I doubt the intermix chamber runs between the tubes simply because the intermix chamber in the engineering hull is further back because of that forward corridor we see in TMP.

The other thing is that we do see the torpedo bay explode from the port side and it didn't kill Scotty down below or catastrophically effect the intermix chamber or the starboard torpedo bay.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I think if you applied your same arguments to the Reliants, Constellations and Excelsiors you'll find that they could all suffer from the same issues you have with the TMP Enterprise.
I did that already. The fact of the matter is they wouldn't have this problem because they would have been designed from the outset to mitigate it. Reliant, in particular, appears to be a ship that was specifically designed around an intermix-style power system so that the power conduits can run straight to the nacelle without going past anything that people are likely to care about; if they run skin-deep along the bottom of the hull, they would be able to pass right through those two "vent" structures on the belly (sometimes thought to be navigational deflectors) while avoiding both the main saucer section and any part of the ship's internal environment.
Those power conduits are still in the hull though. It's not any different than the Enterprise's horizontal shaft going to the nacelle pylons except that there's alot more internal piping on the Reliant.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The Excelsiors would avoid this issue also by moving their reactor components into the bulge.
Is there any indication that they were designed that way though?
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