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Old September 10 2013, 07:57 AM   #232
Crazy Eddie
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That's glare - which increased the brightness by a small amount for the entire frame.
At the point of impact, yes. However:

Again, what we'd expect to see from an initial flash from where you're describing it to be should have lit up the front of the impulse deck
IF it was significantly brighter than the torpedo itself, which -- judging by the illumination on the bridge dome -- it was not.

And in the very next frame at the point of detonation, the starboard side of the saucer is illuminated brightly (to the same degree as the inside face of the starboard nacelle).

"Recoverable munitions" (you), "Training drones" (me).
Yep. The first is a thing used in the real world by real navies on training missions. The second is a thing used by nobody -- not even Starfleet -- on training missions.



You said, "2) NO ship named Enterprise has EVER withstood a conventional attack from more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time."

I provided evidence that you were wrong because the TOS Enterprise did withstand a conventional attack
No it did not. Both times it was overwhelmed by their attacks and forced to retreat. Which, again, is not something they could afford to do on an escort mission.

Then if age has nothing to do with it what's to stop Kirk on the Enterprise from destroying 3 attacking BOPs?
The fact that he barely managed to defeat ONE bird of prey in "Balance of Terror", and even then against a ship that had nearly exhausted its fuel reserves.

Besides which, it isn't a matter of SURVIVING that attack by being able to flee at an opportune moment. Enterprise is supposed to be protecting Gorkon, for whom fleeing may not necessarily be an option. That would explicitly put Enterprise in the same situation that Saavik faced in the simulator: one ship vs. Three Klingons in an attempt to save a different vessel that you cannot afford to abandon. That, if you recall, is the hypothetical that Admiral James T. Kirk calls "The no-win scenario."

Again, what proof that it is not? The head of Starfleet didn't have any qualms about sending the Enterprise instead of a different ship.
A different ship wouldn't generate the kind of respect that Enterprise would.

Okay - what dialogue is that? The only time Spock talks about vouching for Kirk is in volunteering to Starfleet for the mission.
Apart from the implication of how Spock describes it -- he set it up on his own initiative and "personally vouched" for KIRK to go along with it -- there's the fact that the script for the movie has the CnC saying: "As it happens, Kirk, the Chancellor specifically requested you and your officers." This is the line immediately before Spock announces his voucher (and is consistent with Spock's "only Nixon could go to China" line later).

That's not true either. Memory Alpha lists these 2 Reliant-types in TNG/DS9 with sub-3000 registries:
1. USS Trial (NCC-1948)
2. USS Lantree (NCC-1837)
AFAIK, neither registry is actually seen on screen. Repulse is an interesting case, but since we never see the interior we have no idea what her internal technology looks like.

OTOH, Lantree had a crew of 26 at the time it was destroyed and is classified as a "supply ship." Not really suggestive of an "upgrade" there.

That is one possibility that a complete conversion from TOS-model Enterprise to TMP-model Enterprise was impractical in the long run. However we don't really know why the Enterprise-A and the rest of her class of ships were to be retired.
The painfully obvious reason is that they were retired because they had become obsolete by that point. It's likely the Enterprise-A held out for as long as it did because of Jim Kirk's personal awesomeness field.

Well, that plus the fact that Scotty is pretty much the ascendant god of engineering and has been single handedly holding the entire ship together -- both the nil and the -A -- since at least TOS. In that sense, Enterprise is a bit like the 1993 Dodge Charger my boss still drives around sometimes: it's such a rusty old piece of shit you couldn't sell it for a candy bar, but he somehow manages to keep it running regardless.

There isn't any technological reason to believe that the ship could not be further internally upgraded as her contemporaries, the Reliants and Grissoms, remained viable into the future.
The Reliants and grissoms were still in production at the time, however; new hulls could be built that specifically accommodate new technologies and advances in warp field theory without having to completely redesign them in a fundamental way.

The Navy went through something like this in the 1990s when USS Bainbridge was slated for decommissioning; there was a cottage industry of engineers who swore on a stack of Bibles that the Bainbridge could/should be upgraded with modernized VLS systems and combat software to preserve the nuclear cruiser benefit in a modern battlespace. It turns out that the deck structure couldn't really support the VLS system anyway, and the electrical and computer systems installed in the 1970s had been so ad hoc that upgrading the ship a second time would require totally rebuilding it -- AGAIN -- with no gaurantee of improvement over existing (newer) designs.

Technologically it was doable... to the extent that a rube goldberg machine that fires pingpong balls at the speed of sound is doable. But when they got to the point that even the ship's most basic systems were over 50 years old, it was realized that the cost of replacing and upgrading the ship was greater than the cost of building a new one. The same exact thing happened to the old Albany class ships, which were rebuilt from WW-II cruisers to carry the amazingly complicated Tartar missiles; refitting them to carry the newer Standard missiles would have required completely ripping them apart and rebuilding the superstructure for the third time in as many decades in addition to other systems overdue for replacement. The navy simply didn't bother.

That's what "obsolete" basically means in engineering. It's the point where a system/ship/technique is so far behind current technology that it is actually more complicated to upgrade to keep pace with current technology than it is to replace it altogether. It would be like ripping apart an old Apple-IIe and trying to convert it to run Snow Leapord; it's 50 times easier to just buy a new computer.

I don't think you give the Klingons enough credit.
These are Klingons we're talking about...
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Last edited by Crazy Eddie; September 10 2013 at 08:59 AM.
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