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Old September 9 2013, 08:03 PM   #229
Crazy Eddie
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.
The initial flash isn't nearly bright enough to expect that it would; it is not, in fact, that much brighter than the torpedo itself, which only illuminates part of the hull directly next to it (mainly because the Enterprise's hull isn't all that reflective in the first place). The ACTUAL EXPLOSION is bright enough that the glare masks the entire saucer section including the bridge.
The initial explosion put a green glare to the right almost to the "U" of USS. If the explosion point was at the back of the bridge at "1701" as you've described then the light would have easily lit up the front of the impulse deck.
It IS in the frame you're referring to (though partially obscured behind the actual flash) wherein the entire starboard side of the ship all the way up to the first "S" in "USS" and the starboard nacelle is also illuminated. The frame before that, the initial flash of detonation (or impact?) lights up nothing at all except the starboard side of the bridge.

In EITHER case, there is significant illumination on the starboard side of the bridge dome and a portion of the hull starboard-forward of it. This remains inconsistent with an impact point on the port aft.

I mean you're IMAGINING the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular.
That's standard procedure on a real world training vessel. Why would it be different on a fictional one?

Based on that, you also CAN'T learn at the Academy how to explore a planet from a starship.
Of course you can. That's how we've been training Marines for hundreds of years. They learn how to fight and operate effectively on the ground long before they ever set foot on an actual naval vessel.

That's not a good excuse when the ship can visit planets every few days.
Typically does not. Most of the gaps between episodes are on the order of one or two MONTHS, and as I already pointed out, not all of those episodes actually involve beaming down to a planet (and even the ones that do, it's the same three or four bridge officers on almost every mission).

And for Saavik to go on an away mission
That's not part of her TRAINING mission. In fact, the only reason she gets to on the Regula-1 mission is by quoting regulations at a really convenient time.

We do know 172 were at duty stations and 248 were off duty and 11 in sickbay in TMP. If we were to assume that half were on watch at that time because of the V'ger situation then the ship really only needs 344. The other 86 are non-essential to the ship...
And would therefore have no reason to GO on a training mission if they have no jobs on board the ship.

Since we don't know how high a rank a cadet can hold in Starfleet
Yes we do. "Cadet." In conventional terms, that's an actual rank referring to an officer in training who has not yet received a full commission. A cadet may ENTER the officer's corps at various ranks, but he cannot hold that actual rank and be a cadet at the same time (unless, of course, "Cadet" is just shorthand for "space cadet" and Starfleet actually has no such defined status for its trainees).

We have a reason to assume red means cadet. She's wearing it at the beginning of the movie where "cadets" were being rated in the bridge simulator. Since Saavik felt the test was unfair to her
She felt it was an unfair test of her COMMAND ABILITIES. Which is part of what is reflected in Troi's question to Riker "Is there a solution? Or is this simply a test of my ability to handle a no-win situation?"

The whole reason for the simulator room is that Starfleet vessels don't have holodecks yet and can't test certify command-level officers in realistic situations anywhere but highly specialized facilities designed to generate these kinds of scenarios. If Deanna Troi, in particular, had been serving aboard the original Enterprise, she would have had to wait until the ship got back to Earth to take the Bridge Officer's Test; in the 23rd century, "The no-win scenario" is one of the tests; by the 24th, that scenario is sufficiently well known that it has been replaced by the "Win by terrible sacrifice" scenario, which serves a very similar purpose.

Let's see in the movie era for Kirk's Enterprise
There's nothing to see. You can argue extenuating circumstances all you want, but the BUREAUCRATS wouldn't see it that way.

You're forgetting:
1. "Errand of Mercy" - multiple Klingon ships attacked Enterprise while she was orbiting Organia. She safely withdrew back to the fleet.
2. "The Deadly Years" - 10 Romulan ships were attacking her while flying through the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight but her shields were holding for the duration of the attack. She escaped after Kirk tricked them into backing off.
The job of an escort vessel is to deter/prevent an enemy from attacking the object of your protection. If your escort ship's most effective tactic is to run away, it's probably not a very good escort.

Those are two different Enterprises against a different era of enemy ships. How those fair isn't the same comparison to the Enterprise under Kirk.
Three 100 year old Klingon warships manage to overwhelm the most powerful and most advanced ship in Starfleet; in Rascals, it requires only TWO, and those ships are flown by Ferengi.

The Enterprise-A is NOT the most powerful or most advanced ship in Starfleet at the time of TUC. It would be fortunate if it was even on par with its latest Klingon counterparts. By no stretch of the imagination is it up to facing two-to-one odds.

Gorkon requested him by name? I thought Spock volunteered them?
It's why Spock had to personally vouch for Kirk: Gorkon wouldn't have come in the first place if Kirk wasn't part of the package.

I wrote, "There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology. "

"All the other ships" is in reference to just that, all the other ships that have been upgraded to keep up with the technology like the gazillions of Reliants and Excelsiors in DS9's time...
None of which have registries in the low 2000s or even 3000s and appear to be relatively new vessels. What's more significant is that we've never seen an active Constitution class in the 24th century (the point of the OP, remember?). This pales in comparison to the fact that that other than Enterprise, we never see one in the movie era either.

This at least suggests that the Enterprise has ALREADY been upgraded to (possibly even beyond) the reasonable limits of its basic design and they are well post the point of diminishing returns for what they can do with it. I'd go so far as to say the TMP refit was the "Break even" moment at that point: it was the most drastic overhaul of any starship before or since, a project so expensive and complicated that it was just barely cheaper than building a new ship from scratch. The Constitution design is suped as far as the engineers can push it, in which configuration the ship is at rough parity with the Miranda class and still a notch or two beneath the (volumetrically) larger and almost certainly more powerful Constellations.

So they've figured out that any further upgrades to the Last Constitution would be prohibitively expensive and would leave the ship STILL inferior to its contemporaries. There's no reason ton continue at that point, especially since Kirk -- the only thing that really made Enterprise special -- is due for retirement.

Klingon stories go better when they can say, "and yes, the Federation feared Gorkon so much that they sent the might Excelsior...
To which the hearer of the story would reply "What the hell is an Egg Seltzer?"

Klingons know the name of Kirk and they know Enterprise is his ship. They're warriors, not technicians; they're not doing side-by-side comparisons between the Enterprise and Excelsior (whose specifications they don't even have access to in the first place) and thinking "Ya know? Enterprise is kind of a paper tiger when you really think about it."

Not that the movie era's portrayal is exactly "flailing barbarianism," but the phrase "Let's stop and think about this rationally..." isn't exactly the first thing you expect to hear on a Klingon warship.
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