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Old September 7 2013, 02:06 PM   #219
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.
The initial flash isn't nearly bright enough to expect that it would; it is not, in fact, that much brighter than the torpedo itself, which only illuminates part of the hull directly next to it (mainly because the Enterprise's hull isn't all that reflective in the first place). The ACTUAL EXPLOSION is bright enough that the glare masks the entire saucer section including the bridge.
The initial explosion put a green glare to the right almost to the "U" of USS. If the explosion point was at the back of the bridge at "1701" as you've described then the light would have easily lit up the front of the impulse deck.

Instead it does not and therefor it cannot be where you think it exploded and it is further away from the camera putting the explosion on the port side of the impulse deck. What you're seeing is simply glare.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Oh, you mean these imaginative items: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes"
You mean I'm IMAGINING the U.S. Navy uses recoverable torpedoes?
I mean you're IMAGINING the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. I thought I could imagine with you on the target drones, but I'm back to, nah, they'll just fire at random asteroids.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because they've already been trained how to do that at the Academy. You go on training missions to practice the things you CAN'T learn at the Academy, namely operating a starship on a day-to-day basis.
Based on that, you also CAN'T learn at the Academy how to explore a planet from a starship.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The flight's only supposed to three weeks long; there's a lot for them to learn already without trying to squeeze an away mission into the schedule.
That's not a good excuse when the ship can visit planets every few days. 3 Weeks is good for at least 3 planets.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
More importantly: the enlisted crewmen will never go on an away mission -- EVER -- unless they become officers.
Is a "Yeoman" an enlisted crewman? If so, we do see Yeomans go on away missions. We might even see enlisted crewman go on away missions to perform damage control on another ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is a mission for Saavik to learn how to pilot a starship out of space dock; it's a mission for the new helmsmen and security officers to conduct shipboard intruder drills, fire drills, damage control drills, interception drills, decompression drills, medical emergencies, etc. It's a mission for the engineering team on the bridge to get used to having to coordinate with the chief engineer below decks, keep track of his duty rotations, get used to starship cooking, keeping his quarters in order, then going back on duty hours later and keeping track of what the last watchstander left for him to do.
And for Saavik to go on an away mission

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Again, I'm projecting real-world realities onto Starfleet, but it would remain the case that the away missions and ground surveys are a miniscule part of normal starship operations. It takes four hundred people to run a ship the size of the Enterprise; it only takes six to visit a planet.
We do know 172 were at duty stations and 248 were off duty and 11 in sickbay in TMP. If we were to assume that half were on watch at that time because of the V'ger situation then the ship really only needs 344. The other 86 are non-essential to the ship and probably available to be sent to the planet. And even if they were essential to the ship - they could still get sent down. In "Arena" Kirk dropped off 30 medical personnel onto the planet before taking off in pursuit of the Gorn ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Spock said nothing of the kind. He says "If we were to go on active duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command."
You're right but for the wrong quote. He said, "actual duty".
SPOCK: As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command.
It could very well be that the ship was still on "active duty" but not "actually" doing anything active.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It does, actually. A Lieutenant in Starfleet is not a cadet (technically, neither is an ensign).
Since we don't know how high a rank a cadet can hold in Starfleet, we don't know, actually.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Assuming red actually MEANS "cadet."
We have a reason to assume red means cadet. She's wearing it at the beginning of the movie where "cadets" were being rated in the bridge simulator. Since Saavik felt the test was unfair to her then it's a good bet that she's a cadet.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
1) We have seen the Enterprise come under conventional attack four different times in the movie era. All four times, she took heavy damage and on one of those occasions was thoroughly disabled.
Let's see in the movie era for Kirk's Enterprise:
1. TMP - V'ger was all powerful. Doubtful that this was conventional. Minor damage.
2. TWOK - Reliant surprise attack crippled her before she could raise shields. Doubtful that this was conventional as it came from a supposedly friendly ship. Crippled.
3. TSFS - Not fully repaired from her TWOK battle, her automation systems fail as she tried to raise shields. Not sure how this could be conventional since she wasn't battle ready in the first place. Self-destructed.
4. TVH - No Enterprise.
5. TFF - She was caught with her shields down while her attention was focused on the planet below. Not her finest hour. Minor damage.
6. TUC - Suffered damage from multiple torpedo hits from fire-while-cloaked BOP prototype. Didn't do too bad and still got the enemy ship. Minor to moderate damage.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
2) NO ship named Enterprise has EVER withstood a conventional attack from more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time.
You're forgetting:
1. "Errand of Mercy" - multiple Klingon ships attacked Enterprise while she was orbiting Organia. She safely withdrew back to the fleet.
2. "The Deadly Years" - 10 Romulan ships were attacking her while flying through the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight but her shields were holding for the duration of the attack. She escaped after Kirk tricked them into backing off.

That's definitely more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They can apparently survive on even terms, but two-or more means a loosing battle; the ship either runs for its life ("The Deadly Years")
Given the situation in "The Deadly Years", it had to leave. They were already in the wrong for entering the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight to reduce the number of enemy ships. There only option was to find a way to retreat.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
or it succumbs ("Yesterday's Enterprise", "Rascals").
Those are two different Enterprises against a different era of enemy ships. How those fair isn't the same comparison to the Enterprise under Kirk.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The only thing Enterprise really has going for it is Kirk's reputation and the fact that Gorkon requested him by name.
Gorkon requested him by name? I thought Spock volunteered them?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Chang could have just as easily sent three Birds of Prey after Kronos-1 and killed everyone on both ships. But Chang didn't want a dead Chancellor, a wanted a war with the Federation.
In TSFS, according to Kruge the Enterprise out-gunned him 10-1. In "Elaan of Troyius", 6 torpedoes was enough to send a Klingon Battlecruiser home running. I'd argue that the Enterprise during Kirk's time enjoyed a huge advantage over the Klingons. 3 standard BOPs wouldn't have had much chance.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
True. They are CONSIDERABLY more advanced and more powerful. And they still loose at those odds.
I'm dubious of more powerful. In anycase, they're not Kirk's Enterprise.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
"All the other ships?" What other ships in the fleet other than Enterprise received that kind of upgrade? We've only ever SEEN two constitution class vessels in all of the movie era and both of them are named "Enterprise."
I wrote, "There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology. "

"All the other ships" is in reference to just that, all the other ships that have been upgraded to keep up with the technology like the gazillions of Reliants and Excelsiors in DS9's time. I was not referring to TMP's "redesign and refit".

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Old ship gets an old escort. What can I say? Symbolism is almost as important as reputation when it comes to Klingons.
LOL. Klingon stories go better when they can say, "and yes, the Federation feared Gorkon so much that they sent the might Excelsior under Kirk's command to meet with him." OTOH, the Enterprise could've still been close to the Excelsior in firepower, so still good for Klingon musicals.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
He vouched for Kirk. If the ship wasn't up to par then they had plenty of time to put Kirk on a more capable ship.
The ship WASN'T up to par and they sent it anyway. Symoblic gesture is symbolic.
Again, what proof do you have that the ship wasn't up to par?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Or the Excelsiors just replaced the Constitutions in role?
No, I'm pretty sure the Constellations did that. The Excelsiors filled a totally new role that the Constitutions were probably never suited for in the first place.
Perhaps. It could go either way.
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