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Old September 6 2013, 07:33 PM   #215
Crazy Eddie
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Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.
The initial flash isn't nearly bright enough to expect that it would; it is not, in fact, that much brighter than the torpedo itself, which only illuminates part of the hull directly next to it (mainly because the Enterprise's hull isn't all that reflective in the first place). The ACTUAL EXPLOSION is bright enough that the glare masks the entire saucer section including the bridge.

It remains far more relevant that the only thing that IS lit by the initial flash is the starboard side of the bridge module. That means that at the moment of detonation, the torpedo was still a considerable distance to starboard of the centerline. That being true, there is no longer much of anything to indicate an impact point on the port side.

Oh, you mean these imaginative items: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes"
You mean I'm IMAGINING the U.S. Navy uses recoverable torpedoes?

Then by practicing all their jobs in space, the ones that need to beam down to survey or get scanning equipment ready to explore some random planet from orbit would get to do that. What's the problem with that?
Because they've already been trained how to do that at the Academy. You go on training missions to practice the things you CAN'T learn at the Academy, namely operating a starship on a day-to-day basis. The flight's only supposed to three weeks long; there's a lot for them to learn already without trying to squeeze an away mission into the schedule.

More importantly: the enlisted crewmen will never go on an away mission -- EVER -- unless they become officers. They practice some maneuvers with shuttlecraft, and they're certain to practice EVAs a couple dozen times. But away missions are the exclusive territory of senior officers for whom far more intensive training has already been completed before they ever stepped foot on the ship.

This is a mission for Saavik to learn how to pilot a starship out of space dock; it's a mission for the new helmsmen and security officers to conduct shipboard intruder drills, fire drills, damage control drills, interception drills, decompression drills, medical emergencies, etc. It's a mission for the engineering team on the bridge to get used to having to coordinate with the chief engineer below decks, keep track of his duty rotations, get used to starship cooking, keeping his quarters in order, then going back on duty hours later and keeping track of what the last watchstander left for him to do.

Again, I'm projecting real-world realities onto Starfleet, but it would remain the case that the away missions and ground surveys are a miniscule part of normal starship operations. It takes four hundred people to run a ship the size of the Enterprise; it only takes six to visit a planet.

Spock did say that the ship was not on "active duty."
Spock said nothing of the kind. He says "If we were to go on active duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command."

He is referring to the trainees, who are not technically active members of Starfleet yet. Sulu, McCoy, Uhura, Kirk and Spock ARE on active duty and arguably so is Saavik. The Enterprise, also, is a starship deployed on active duty despite the fact that most of its CREW are not.

Removing a ship from active duty is called "decommissioning" or at the very least placing that vessel in reserve. It wouldn't even leave Earth orbit in that case, let alone carry live gear.

That doesn't answer whether she was still a cadet or not.
It does, actually. A Lieutenant in Starfleet is not a cadet (technically, neither is an ensign).

She's red throughout the entire TWOK movie so she's still a cadet then.
Assuming red actually MEANS "cadet."

What proof do you have that she wouldn't be effective against a conventional attack and that she is less advanced?
Because
1) We have seen the Enterprise come under conventional attack four different times in the movie era. All four times, she took heavy damage and on one of those occasions was thoroughly disabled.
2) NO ship named Enterprise has EVER withstood a conventional attack from more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time. They can apparently survive on even terms, but two-or more means a loosing battle; the ship either runs for its life ("The Deadly Years") or it succumbs ("Yesterday's Enterprise", "Rascals").

The only thing Enterprise really has going for it is Kirk's reputation and the fact that Gorkon requested him by name. Chang could have just as easily sent three Birds of Prey after Kronos-1 and killed everyone on both ships. But Chang didn't want a dead Chancellor, a wanted a war with the Federation.

Her successors are not the same Enterprise we're talking about.
True. They are CONSIDERABLY more advanced and more powerful. And they still loose at those odds.

Or she might've been scheduled to be replaced when they finished the Enterprise-B? There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology.
"All the other ships?" What other ships in the fleet other than Enterprise received that kind of upgrade? We've only ever SEEN two constitution class vessels in all of the movie era and both of them are named "Enterprise."

Hey, if you're willing to ask that question then why would the Federation send an obsolete ship to escort him?
Old ship gets an old escort. What can I say? Symbolism is almost as important as reputation when it comes to Klingons.

He vouched for Kirk. If the ship wasn't up to par then they had plenty of time to put Kirk on a more capable ship.
The ship WASN'T up to par and they sent it anyway. Symoblic gesture is symbolic.

Or the Excelsiors just replaced the Constitutions in role?
No, I'm pretty sure the Constellations did that. The Excelsiors filled a totally new role that the Constitutions were probably never suited for in the first place.

Put that another way: Mirandas are suitable for six-month to one-year mission in local space. Constitutions (and later, Constellations) can handle a five year mission out on the frontier. Excelsiors and Ambassadors can manage upwards of ten years, while the Galaxy class can cruise around for a generation.

The Constitution design was probably first constructed when that mid-tier "five year mission" was the farthest that any starship would ever get from Earth; fifty years later, they're probing far deeper than before, and the mid-tier starships of the previous generation are mismatched for the environment in which they now operate; they're going to be doing a lot less exploring and a lot more law enforcement, security patrol, search and rescue, engineering support and humanitarian relief. The "Five Year Mission" zone is no longer the frontier, but has instead become the suburbs. Constitution, with its high-powered deflector dish and scientific survey equipment, is a rugged "all-terrain vehicle" in an environment that really needs high-speed patrol cars and vans with lots of trunk space.
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