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Old September 3 2013, 01:21 PM   #60
Re: Resigning from Starfleet

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
Wesley took exams just before his sixteenth birthday, so he would have been sixteen at least when he entered the academy. that a big leap from 13 years old. We can safely assume since he had not applied before that sixteen is the minimum entry age ( also borne out by Picards statements).
I don't think Picard says anything relevant there - but the Vulcan contestant does mention age requirements and doubts that Wesley would meet them. Wes saying he's gonna be sixteen soon only tells us that "almost sixteen" is enough, though; it doesn't tell what would not be enough.

Also, e.g. Picard tried to get in at seventeen, not sixteen, despite being eager to ship out. And of course Chekov could have gotten in at sixteen, too, being so damn clever that he could graduate in a year.

That and the information we have from TOS makes it fairly obvious that Starfleet does not work the way real world military academies do. Which is fine, since as a fictional academy that is partially military three hundred years in the future there is no basis for it being beholden to the real world.
This is fine and well, but not something that the evidence would actually require us to believe. Nobody called Cadet has worn commissioned officer's insignia outside the crisis in STXI, and no personal history requires us to believe that such a thing would have happened off screen.

Come on Timo, I think we both know thats not a valid argument its an appeal to absurdity....
Very much to the contrary, this argument is just as valid than yours, point by point. Saavik being a female is confirmed by her being addressed by the feminine pronoun multiple times - just like her being a commissioned officer is confirmed by her being addressed Lieutenant. This is English 101. Saavik is also addressed as "Mister", which is contrary to historical precedent; might be an acceptable "futuristic" element because women in naval service were still rare in the 1980s; but in the end is an outlier and an oddity that has very little evidence value. And yes, this is scifi, and a man could have boobs there, but that's really not something we'd wish to actively pursue.

Yet the statement implies that Mitchell met Kirk at the academy, not conclusive in itself but it adds to the weight of evidence that Kirk held rank at the academy. Its clear what the intent of the statement was.
We're not talking about intent here, though, but about reconciling between the writings of authors who didn't pay attention to what others were doing.

If Kirk first met Mitchell at the Academy, then Kirk must have held the rank of Lieutenant at the age of seventeen at the very latest (assuming the first pilot took place two years before "The Deadly Years" where Kirk is 34, and not even earlier). Why would anybody wish to argue for such a thing, especially if one doesn't want to believe in early entry age to Starfleet?

If Kirk met Mitchell at the Academy but not first, there's no problem there. And no contradiction with the dialogue at all.

There is no basis for that statement, nothing says any of the cadets were given rank after the crisis.
Nothing going against it, either. And that is the sort of thing even real-world militaries do in dire emergencies: students are rushed through graduation.

Again a seventeen year old holding the rank of ensign indicates that cadets did have rank prior to that.
Why, if you wish to argue that Kirk should have held the rank of Lieutenant at that very same age? Why would a lower rank prove anything in such a case?

STXI is explicit as to who is a cadet, they wear cadet uniforms and attend the cadet meetings.
Commissioned officers also definitely attend the meetings and quite possibly wear the uniforms. ST2 had the same thing happening: seasoned veterans partook in the activities of cadets and trainees, in the same uniforms (if you believe Saavik was a cadet) or in separate, identifiable ones (if you believe Saavik was a commissioned Lieutenant).

Good call, do you know when she seems to get the promotion by any chance?
Some time before TNG begins, apparently. We never see her wearing LtCmdr pins. Not even in the "Violations" flashback, because she's in civilian gear there.

In many S1 shots and cast photos, her rank insignia are difficult to see because of the early long and curly wig and the overcoat, but here's one where the Cmdr rank is visible:

Timo Saloniemi
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