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Old August 25 2013, 08:25 AM   #185
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So you're saying that a "defensive action is something you do to prevent your OWN elimination" and you agree that "it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy." So why are you objecting to torpedoes used as defensive fire against an enemy ship as it doesn't contradict those parameters?
Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action.
A Counter-Attack is defined as an attack against an enemy attacking force by a defending force which still makes it a defensive action and is listed as a "defensive tactic".

The nature of the defensive fire aka counter-attack isn't any different than getting your tailgunner to fire bullets at an attacking enemy plane or a soldier using his gun to defend his position against attacking enemy soldiers.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.
Forcing an attacking enemy ship to take evasive action or go on the defense can buy time for a defending ship to escape. I believe I said it here:

blssdwlf wrote:
Aft torpedo tubes are more like aft tubes on a submarine to discourage pursuers when it needed to escape, IMHO.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Phasers have use as defensive weapons since they can be used to intercept enemy missiles and torpedoes and protect the ship itself. Photon torpedoes are primarily anti-ship weapons; you fire them, and the ENEMY has to go defensive if he wants to survive. If he doesn't want to survive, he might just ignore your torpedoes, take the hits on the chin, and immediately fire back without loosing the initiative.
Since a defensive action aka counterattack can destroy an attacking enemy ship then firing photon torpedoes in defense to destroy (or disable) an enemy ship is a valid defense.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Yes, and when it self-shutdown, they could run down to engineering to pull the connections and start restoring control of the ship. Scotty's automation didn't give them that option.
Pulling the plug on M5 wouldn't have given them control of the ship, it just guaranteed that M5 wouldn't "change its mind" and take control again. Kirk left himself open to attack on purpose, knowing that 1) he couldn't effectively fight back if he wanted to and 2) Commodore Wesley would probably spare the ship if he thought it was open to attack.
When M-5 was neutralized, they were regaining control of the ship. They had about 1 minute but they were doing something to restore control. At the very minimum, they were forcing the shields to stay down and working on communications at the same time.
KIRK: Intership communications. This is the captain speaking. In approximately one minute, we'll be attacked by Federation starships.
The M-5 no longer controls the ship, but neither do we control it. The M-5 has left itself, and us, open for destruction.
For whatever satisfaction we may get from the knowledge, our nineteen lives will buy the survival of over one thousand of our fellow starship crewmen.
SPOCK: The force field is gone, Captain. M-5 is neutralised.
SCOTT: System's coming back. I can give you power for the shields, sir.
KIRK: I need communications.
SCOTT: That'll take longer.
KIRK: Then cut power.
KIRK: Cut power. Keep those shields down.
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It probably IS the Jefferies Tube, or something similar to it. Either way, it's not actually part of the engine room; in the director's cut of TWOK we see Kirk and Saavik and Spock using a similar ladderway to climb between decks after leaving the transporter room because turbolifts are inoperative below C-deck.
A "similar" ladderway doesn't mean it is not part of engineering. Since the specific one Scotty and engineer are in has some sort of panel that the two seem to be working on when Scotty says they're finishing the automation we are left with that specific ladder is part of engineering.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
... would have been an option BEFORE the Klingons hit them with a photon torpedo. The first thing Kirk says after they get hit is "emergency power!" they're in almost the same shape they were in right after Khan's torpedo strike.
Were they? Right after Khan's torpedo strike they still had power for a few phaser shots. Here the automation completely took them out of the game with apparently no chance for a manual override.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
With a sizeable damage control team in engineering,
Kirk's damage control party was 4 guys, not counting McCoy.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Kirk might have been able to stall Kruge for a couple of minutes until his staff could run to engineering and try to get the power systems online, but that would only count for one last, suicidal gesture after which the Klingons would have blown him to bits. His "You have two minutes to surrender" was his hold card, and Kruge called his bluff.
It's Kirk - of course it'd work! Anyway, the point is that for 5 minutes (Surrender talks, David's death) + 2 minutes (Kruge) = 7 minutes of time they did nothing indicating that there was no way to override the automation.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Watch it in live action: the shadow is present both before and after the torpedo strike, and is therefore from an external light source (either Genesis itself or the central star in the system).

The light from the TORPEDO actually spills over the starboard side of the saucer -- no shading from the bridge module -- and partially washes out that shadow with the "secondary" explosions.
That spillover is from all the sparking. The hit location however should have eliminated that starboard shadow from the light source. Instead, we can see that it is glowing behind the hump that is in front of the impulse housing. This tells us it cannot be directly between the impulse and bridge because the slope would illuminate the impulse evenly.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Given that there are several planets that the cadets can practice exploring in system, like Earth or experiments from orbit like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, etc
Missions to which would have been handled by Academy annexes at those locations, serving proving grounds that had been setup ahead of time so the cadets would have a safe place to train (as NASA basically does with its neutral buoyancy tanks and the terrain simulators from the old lunar missions).
Which is all good and well but then that would negate the need for an actual training ship. Once they're done with training at these annexes then it would make sense to do it for real on an actual training ship

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
More importantly, Starfleet officers seem to spend most of their time exploring Earthlike planets in shirtsleeve environments. How many Earthlike planets exist in the Sol system?
One - Earth. And that's a good one since they have a known target to verify their sensor readings with and do training beam downs and exploration.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They would've called the Excelsior and have them fire the torpedo? But since they were carrying it and their mission was an escort mission then it stands to reason that the ship will normally carry scientific equipment. So the training ship would have carried scientific equipment along with her live torpedoes.
That would fit, IF Enterprise was being used as a training vessel in TUC. If it was being used as a technology testbed or something similar, then the analytic equipment would have been the prototype for the gear that was later fitted on the Excelsior.
We know from TWOK she carried live torpedoes. After some safe simulator training on Earth, they went on board a training ship with the real weapons. There is no reason to believe that the Enterprise as a training ship or Enterprise-A as an active duty ship would go out without actual equipment.
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