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Old August 23 2013, 10:26 PM   #91
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Timo wrote: View Post
Bob, you are definitely onto something as regards cargo/supplies stowage and transfer (although the actual designers of these photographic models probably didn't spare any thought to such things). With the increased reach of a successful transwarp drive, there would have to be a logistics revolution in Starfleet - and the Excelsior, no matter how experimental, was certainly built with success in mind, featuring all the familiar elements of a deep space exploration and combat starship as defined in TOS and redefined in TMP. Plus more...

The "more" could certainly be logistics-related. Or then it could be a side effect of the ship shunting all of its truly experimental and untrustworthy bits into the lower keel area, and keeping a path clear for dumping them to space at the earliest sign of trouble!
Brilliantly put, by you and Bob. I will keep this at heart when I start revising my TM.

Timo wrote: View Post
But taken literally, transwarp is "beyond warp", "the next thing after warp". Once adopted to use, it ceases to be transwarp, and the sights are set for the next "the next".

Which is why all sorts of completely unrelated FTL drives can be "transwarp" at the same time, or at various points of history.
I have a feeling I'm going to have to re-make up my my mind about this. I still like my current have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too solution.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I believe the transwarp drive was only a large module aboard NX-2000. If the 23rd Century transwarp failed, the module was discarded, if transwarp worked, they came up with smaller components and integrated those into the Excelsior Class. Either way, the chasm became available for other applications.
Okay. Do you have a particular vision for how the transwarp drive would be a modular unit? Seems to kind of defy the notion of a warp core as we know it... or even the intermix chamber of TMP.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Frankly, it's the weird astonishment of the bridge crew at the start of ST III that made me wonder. Have they not seen the ship in drydock before, don't they know she has an experimental transwarp drive?
See, I don't read it as astonishment. I read it as mock awe on the part of Scotty and Uhura, and genuine interest on Sulu's part.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why even bring her from the drydock inside the spacedock? Kirk's Enterprise departed twice from drydock, Harriman's Enterprise-B departed from drydock, only Excelsior didn't.
For the Enterprise-B, we saw a commissioning ceremony taking place in drydock. We are apt to assume the same thing took place for the Excelsior in her own drydock. The Enterprise-B was returning somewhere to get her torpedoes installed on Tuesday - perhaps it was Spacedock to which she would return for a final fitting out?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course, Earth Spacedock is shielded from curious eyes and that quarter section with the Excelsior may have been a restricted area, hence the bridge crew's surprise.

Maybe it was a deliberate decision to have the Enterprise anchor there and thus withdraw her from public attention and scatter the crew USS Liberty (the real ship) style.
I'm sure there's some measure of security afforded by Spacedock, but surely also the Sol System is relatively secure from prying eyes already? Or at least, any security compromises are considered acceptable.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If you seriously come to think of it, Kirk's career was heading for a dive. Somebody had to answer for what happened in ST II and considering all the lives lost under Kirk's watch because of his negligence, not to mention his naive and personal vouching for Dr. Marcus' Genesis Project, I can't help but feel that Captain Styles' threat was as empty as you could possibly imagine. Shall I continue...?
In my TM writeup, I sort of concluded that Admiral Morrow had it out a bit for the Enterprise (because he was making his legacy in the Excelsior) and that Kirk and Styles were rivals from the Academy.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
She was a bridge officer aboard Excelsior in ST VI and I think she had been on that ship from day one with that lounge in ST III having been reserved exclusively for Excelsior personnel.
Then why'd she get bumped from Commander in TSFS to Chief Petty Officer in TVH in the service of Starfleet HQ, then back to Lieutenant Commander in TUC when on Excelsior?

Workbee wrote: View Post
It always struck me odd how in the movies, they depicted most of the lower hull being occupied by engineering and the shuttle bay. In TOS Engineering and Shuttle Bays were each confined to singular rooms (and yes, one can argue there were multiple engineering rooms reflecting the different configurations of the set, but we don't conclusively which ones or if any of them were in the secondary hull). I liked to imagine that the lower hull was filled with "science stuff" -- sensors, equipment, labs, etc. The revelation in TMP that such a large volume of that part of the ship was dedicated to the engines struck a dissonant chord for me. Any explanation that moves away from gargantuan drive system thingy, in favor of exploration specific purposes is more appealing to me. Star Trek, for me at least, was never about "breaking speed records" -- especially Warp Speed was basically as fast or as slow as the plot needed it to be from episode to episode. I want the ship filled with labratories, teams of scientists, botanists, astronomers, cartographers and the like analyzing stuff... WITH SCIENCE!! To me, the Excelsior was to (and by TUC did) herald a shift away from the Bennett/Meyer/Nimoy militaristic Starfleet back toward the peaceful scientific Starfleet of TOS. Design emphasizes this -- torpedo launchers are again recessed instead of sticking right out there on the refit-E. As much as I enjoyed the refit-E's aesthetic, that was something I had issue with.
Very interesting points I hadn't fully considered before. I do agree with you about the science labs. If the navigational deflector is also the main sensor array, then it also makes sense that there would be adjoining science labs. I propsed the protusions on the Enterprise-B added to the secondary hull mostly added more science lab facilities, along similar lines of thinking.

Timo wrote: View Post
I'd argue that Spacedock Earth is exclusively for embarkation and disembarkation - the equivalent of a commercial airport, only in orbit. Perhaps it's even a civilian installation for the most part, with Starfleet just holding a pier or two (at least during the militant 2280s). That the Excelsior is there is a sign that all work on her has been brought to completion and she's ready to embark on test flights.
I'd agree that it was more of an embarkation/debarkation point - but I would think of it less like an airport and more like a pier. That civilians are there is probably somewhat incidental. I'm sure there is adequate security aboard to prevent stealing of a ship. Oh, wait...

Timo wrote: View Post
We could similarly dismiss the comparable Constellation ugliness as old technology taken to ridiculous extremes before new tech steps in. But the Miranda and the Sydney are ugly the very same way, with protruding this-and-that, and they supposedly aren't refits or extreme experiments.
While I agree on the Constellation and the DS9 kitbashes being old(er) technology taken to extremes, I would disagree that the Miranda and Sydney are similarly ugly. I think they're simply second-rate as opposed to the Constitution class. As for the registry numbers of the Frankenfleet, perhaps some of them were given new numbers when they were recommissioned?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'd say that "Day of the Dove" answers some of your questions. According to the alien entity's exit point in TOS one engine room was at the center of the engineering hull near the bow.

It's also interesting to note that neither Kirk or Spock found it odd, that 400 crew members went to the lower decks and got trapped below this engine room. Looks like there should be plenty of labs and workplaces down below which I hope to be able to illustrate in one of the next stages of my TOS Enterprise deck plan project.
Great point!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Addendum: I should state that the Excelsior's designer name I mentioned in my little conjectural speech ("Thorndike") is not entirely conjectural.

I thought his name was mentioned by Uhura in ST III when she sees the Excelsior.

As it turns out the name is an invention of the movie's German dubbing (instead of "will you look at that" the German Uhura said "Thorndike's idea").

Ain't that cool, now we also know the name of the Excelsior's designer!
Odd little tidbit. I shall have to work that into my TM. I trust you won't let me forget it?

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Yeah, I like that a lot. It's "Spacedock" rather than "Starbase 1", it has a cantina full of civvies and pirates, and it's got some truly abysmal policemen.
You know, I always assumed that took place on Earth. You may be right, though.

Also, I'm fairly certain that was Starfleet security holding McCoy, rather than civilian. Redshirts by any other name have just as bad aim.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
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