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Old August 22 2013, 04:36 AM   #174
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Show me where it says in the military that a defensive action would exclude destroying your enemy.
For the fourth time, it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy. That is simply not the GOAL of defensive action, which is why a defensive action that manages to destroy the enemy can still fail as a defensive action. That is the whole point of the distinction, in fact: an offensive action is taken for the singular goal of eliminating the enemy forces from the battlefield, one way or another. Defensive action is something you to do prevent your OWN elimination.
So you're saying that a "defensive action is something you do to prevent your OWN elimination" and you agree that "it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy." So why are you objecting to torpedoes used as defensive fire against an enemy ship as it doesn't contradict those parameters?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That can include killing or destroying their units.
Of course it can. But that is not the GOAL.

They're also unlikely to SHOOT DOWN the enemy plane. That isn't the point anyway: the gunners' job is to shoot at the enemy, forcing them to take evasive action and make it harder for them to attack the bombers. If you can kill them, great, but since you usually CAN'T, it's enough to keep them from really shooting at you.

The same applies to escort planes, actually. The escorts are expected to pass up opportunities to kill enemy aircraft if it means staying with the bomber formation and defending it. If you shoot down every enemy plane in the sky but loose all of your bombers, your defensive action has failed.

Now, a defensive WEAPON is one that is optimized for use in a defensive action. Tailguns on bombers is one example. Some close-in weapon systems on naval vessels also qualify. Defensive weapons can be used offensively under some circumstances, but that, again, is not the reason they were installed and not how they were INTENDED to be used.
Tailguns from a B17 used the same .50 cal machine guns that were mounted on fighter planes of that era. Both guns and their bullets can be used to shoot down aircraft. The only difference between the tailgun of a B17 and a fighter plane is that one is aimed in it's aft quarter which is just like stern torpedoes on a submarine or the Reliant used to hit targets in their aft quarter.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They wired an automation device that CHOSE NOT to be manually overridden. There was, if you remember, a manual override built into Kirk's chair specifically for that reason (and M5 went out of its way to bypass it).
Yes, and when it self-shutdown, they could run down to engineering to pull the connections and start restoring control of the ship. Scotty's automation didn't give them that option.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Thanks. So how can you tell that the ladder/crawlway he is in TSFS is not connected to Engineering or not related to some part of the Jefferies Tubes? Was there a similar access panel in TSFS that is present in the TWOK version of that set?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which would have gotten him what, exactly, since he still wouldn't be able to control those systems from the bridge without the automation center in place?
Go to engineering and manually transfer power to the shields and weapons. Have Sulu run to manually aim and fire phasers. Etc.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It was too late by then. Without the automation center there's no way to actually run the Enterprise with just six people. Even if they could still get their systems working at that point (with an unshielded torpedo hit at that range, what condition is the ship even IN?) they wouldn't be able to control them effectively. Without automation it takes at least 60 people to run the ship; it simply wasn't an option.
The Constellation in "The Doomsday Machine" was wrecked with significant damage but about 4-5 people were able to manually control the ship. So yes, it was an option IF Scotty's automation system didn't prevent them from doing so.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Again, after being hit by a photon torpedo that's a pretty delicate operation there may not be any time for.
There was 5 minutes from the time Scotty announced the automation center was out to when Kirk surrendered. Another 2 minutes after that before the Klingons boarded.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
More importantly, even in generations this involved Kirk running down to deflector control and making modifications to the system so the fully-staffed bridge crew could activate the deflector and steer their totally undamaged ship out of danger. Imagine them trying to pull off that same trick with a thirty-foot hole in the computer core and only four functional people on the bridge.
Yeah, it's from "The Doomsday Machine". 2 or 3 guys down in engineering and 1-2 guys manually flying the ship and firing phasers.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It never got anywhere near the deflector crystal housing. Slightly aft of the bridge, either directly aft or a little to starboard.
If it was slightly aft of the bridge or a little to the starboard then why doesn't the shadow of the impulse housing reflect this? Instead the shadow is casting to the ship's starboard side which suggests the hit is to the port-side forward of the crystal housing.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
So where is your evidence that their training flight would have excluded a training exploration at some point in their itinerary?
You're asking me to prove a negative. Does a training cruise that may not even leave the solar system include exploration missions to actual planets?
Given that there are several planets that the cadets can practice exploring in system, like Earth or experiments from orbit like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, etc the argument that the ship would not carry scientific or exploration equipment doesn't make sense.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
IF it does, then we might make the case for the presence of mission-ready scientific equipment that might have been useful on genesis. But there's no indication they were planning any of the kind, and the lack of such equipment works as an explanation for why they had to return to spacedock to be refitted for an exploration mission.
That would again suggest something that isn't supported in the movies. The only clear reason why they returned was that not all battle damage had been repaired and they needed refitting. (Well, that and a crew.)

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Another thought: what would Enterprise have done against Chang if they WEREN'T carrying all that equipment for cataloging gaseous anomalies?
They would've called the Excelsior and have them fire the torpedo? But since they were carrying it and their mission was an escort mission then it stands to reason that the ship will normally carry scientific equipment. So the training ship would have carried scientific equipment along with her live torpedoes.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pulverizing a "small" 200-300meter asteroid would require significant energy.
Depends on the asteroid; a gravelpit with very little cohesion could be broken apart even if the torpedo had no warhead.

Then again, I wouldn't call 200 to 300 meters "small."
Sure, even with no warhead there can be alot of kinetic energy if given enough of a run.
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